A discussion on TFES forum

[ThinkAboutThis]

Maybe about the whole issue of minds being, in Dawkins' words, so open the brain falls out?

I haven't listened to a whole lot of Richard Dawkins, but where does he say that? Sounds interesting.

Have you thought about creating a YouTube channel? When I first joined this forum, I thought you were Unnatural Vegan because some of the things she said on her channel, were similar to what I read from you here. I think a channel with a format similar to "Armoured Skeptic" or "logicked" would suit you, could even add a voice modulator in there too (like "L" from "Death Note"). I'd definitely promote it, and I'm sure TVA and UV would as well.

[brimstoneSalad]

I haven't listened to a whole lot of Richard Dawkins, but where does he say that? Sounds interesting.

He says that a lot, but so did Sagan and some others. It's hard to trace the origin of the quote.

http://www.skeptic.com/insight/open-min ... -aphorism/

Have you thought about creating a YouTube channel? [..] I'd definitely promote it, and I'm sure TVA and UV would as well.

Thanks! Maybe some day.

[ThatNerdyScienceGirl]

Yes, I do honestly believe that the Earth is flat, and if you want to debate with me about it, please, open a new topic on that forum.

There is no need to debate something that has already been disproved by even 1st grade science students.

Then again, I can say that I believe the earth to be just the bum on a cleanly shaven flying unicorn, but that doesn't mean much

[RanOverByATrain]

I can see what you guys are saying, however I don't agree that flat Earther vegans are going to make us bad. Quite frankly, I don't see how believing the Earth is flat is any different than someone not believing in natural selection or evolution. I don't think religious people are going to make us look bad though, because that's unrelated to veganism.

If this were something like vegans saying things as facts that aren't or actually saying that they believe in said pseudoscience because they are vegans, that would be one thing. But these things are completely different from veganism.

Unfortunately, persuasion is often less about logic than about perception. Vegans have to seem normal enough so that people are willing to consider becoming one. People won't pursue anything -- morality or health -- if there's a threat of social ostracization.

I don't see why they would associate two completely different things with each other.

Also, part of being normal is being different. There is no one normal type of person. If all vegans were the same, it would be very odd.
I think it's more important for the "normal-looking" vegans to speak up about their beliefs than to try to keep the ones who believe in some unusual things from speaking up about theirs.

Just to let you know, if you want to avoid having veganism look odd, well, when you avoid sticking up for veganism because someone you disagree with is speaking up about it, it just makes veganism look odd because nobody "normal" is arguing for veganism.

People also like people who are like themselves. So, I think we will help the animals more by having everybody who's vegan speaking up for it. With all those different view points, we will have somebody for everybody.

Supporting Flat Earthers going vegan would possibly be harmful to veganism. Just like supporting somebody like Hitler going vegan -- people would say "wow, Hitler was really evil and he was vegan, veganism must be evil!". Except, instead "I knew a vegan once, he thought the Earth was flat, vegans are crazy!"

Again, this is flawed reasoning on the part of the carnists, but it's psychology. We need to be good representatives of veganism.

I have seen many of your posts here and in some of them, you insult the person you are debating with instead of sticking to just the facts. You don't even need to because you are generally making good points. In this thread, you are saying she/he is uneducated, dishonest, and the like. You have called people idiots too.

Hurting other animals (people are animals too) because you think they are less intelligent than you is very similar to what meat eaters will do. They claim it's ok too, because the animals are less intelligent.

This kind of contradicts veganism and could look bad on us too. But you don't mind doing it.
I think that if someone is going to assume that about all vegans because of you, it's their fault though.

Also, I'm the only one who seems to have noticed that, so there are many others who have the same view point as you. You could very well convert someone who is like you by doing that.

However for people who are different from you, that won't necessarily work. Many people will reject something just because they don't like the person who says it.

You also believe that killing an innocent person to save more is ok. There's nothing wrong with that, but that's an unusual view point too. Some would say that's messed up.

There is no need to debate something that has already been disproved by even 1st grade science students.

Just because you learn something in school doesn't necessarily mean it's true. You would think they would only tell us true things, but there are many things that I was taught in school that are false.

"We have five senses." We actually have more than 5 senses.
"Christopher Columbus proved the Earth was round and discovered America."
"We need meat and dairy."
"Pluto is a planet."

[brimstoneSalad]

If I didn't say it already: Welcome!

Quite frankly, I don't see how believing the Earth is flat is any different than someone not believing in natural selection or evolution.

I agree those are both probably equally absurd beliefs. However, Flat Earth is less common, and so less socially accepted.

I don't think religious people are going to make us look bad though, because that's unrelated to veganism.

More importantly, religion is seen as normal. FE is not. It's like having a tattoo on your face: Also a bad idea if you want to convince most people to go vegan.

Also, part of being normal is being different. There is no one normal type of person. If all vegans were the same, it would be very odd.

I agree. It's why we need Christian vegans, Muslim vegans, black and white and Asian, Body builders, Artists, Engineers, etc. All important diversity of perspective.

Believing in a Flat Earth is something else, though. There's little to no chance of being seen as anything short of insane by the mainstream.

The problem I have is not with diversity, it's that this is transparently loony to the vast majority of people.

I think it's more important for the "normal-looking" vegans to speak up about their beliefs than to try to keep the ones who believe in some unusual things from speaking up about theirs.

I'm happy for him to be vegan, and talk about veganism. I just don't want him to talk about Flat Earth. His time would be better spent arguing with people elsewhere about veganism.

People also like people who are like themselves. So, I think we will help the animals more by having everybody who's vegan speaking up for it. With all those different view points, we will have somebody for everybody.

If even 1% of the population thought the Earth was flat, I might agree. It could be something resembling respectable in public perception, like religion. As it stands, this is too far from mainstream to be helpful. How many people do you think actually believe in a Flat Earth?

I have seen many of your posts here and in some of them, you have a habit of insulting the person you are debating with instead of sticking to just the facts. You don't even need to because you are generally making good points. In this thread, you are saying she/he is uneducated, dishonest, and the like. You have called people idiots too.

I don't necessarily need to cuss when I stub my toe either, but it's hard to help it. When I'm trying to be nice, I have to re-read and edit my post several times to achieve the effect. I find this is not usually time-effective. I have made a special effort in my discussion with Mr. Purple (currently ongoing). For some others, I don't because I don't believe it's necessary or even helpful.

Sardonic wit and sarcasm makes debate more dramatic, and more interesting. Ask why the most popular pundits on TV are assholes, and you'll be on the right track. I've discussed this issue with regard to Gary Yourofsky before too (although he has overdone it a couple times).

In some cases, however, I am deliberately provocative because it elicits the kind of response I need.

Read this thread, starting here: https://theveganatheist.com/forum/viewt ... =179#p1688
She finally changed her mind when I hit home by calling her a bad mother.

The bottom line is: It's not always true that you catch more flies with honey than vinegar -- the opposite is more often the case.

Of course, there is a calculus to it, and there is a point at which you can be too mean and aggressive, and lose results. The important thing is to be just mean enough to be interesting, but not so mean that you alienate everybody.

This could be an interesting subject, if you'd like to start a new thread to carry on the discussion.

This kind of contradicts veganism and could look bad on us too. But you don't mind doing it.

See above. I have been nicer and meaner. There's a certain middle ground that, in my experience, is optimal for various reasons.

You also believe that killing an innocent person to save more is ok. There's nothing wrong with that, but that's an unusual view point too. Some would say that's messed up.

That's not quite what I said, and never how I'd say it. This is a very different issue, and a matter of philosophical consistency -- directly related to moral philosophy and veganism. I can't persuade anybody if I can't use logic.

F.E. belief is not helpful in any respect.

There is no need to debate something that has already been disproved by even 1st grade science students.

Just because you learn something in school doesn't necessarily mean it's true. You would think they would only tell us true things, but there are many things that I was taught in school that are false.

I agree. Typical public school education does NOT prove that the Earth is round, it's just taught as authority.
There are things that prove that, but they're not usually taught in public school.

[teo123]

OK, so, why is my belief that the Earth is flat irrational? That's what my senses tell me and what my reason confirms. As for your statement that there are things I can't explain, look, those are things that probably you, and the vast majority of Round Earthers, can't explain either. And there are some things that, as far as I know, no Round Earther explained, yet there is an obvious answer if you assume a Flat Earth. Why do ships farther than the horizon reappear when looked through a telescope? If the Sun is yellow, and there is no air in space to cause dispersion, how come the Moon appears reddish during the lunar eclipse? If the Sun is millions of kilometers away, how come aren't the rays of the sunlight parallel? Why doesn't the horizon on high altitude photographs (except on ones from NASA) appear circular, but elliptical? And how come do you never see any stars bellow the horizon level (eyeline) on them? Why does the horizon appear to rise with you when you climb? Why are the tops of the clouds (when looked from an airplane) illuminated during the sunrise and sunset, and not just the bottoms (if the Sun during the sunset really goes bellow the horizon, and not just farther than it)? Why isn't the Sun during the sunrise and sunset apparently magnified by the atmosphere? If the Moon really gets its light from the Sun, how come the illuminated part of the Moon doesn't align with the Sun? And I have seen that with my own eyes: the Sun just set, but the north part of the Moon was illuminated, and not the west one! And I think any explanation that includes the rotundity of the Earth should be considered wrong, because it contradicts what we see every single day. But, anyway, give it a try! And if you don't know how does the Flat Earth Theory explain them, do your homework (it's all on the thread I linked to when asked why do I believe that the Earth is flat)!
If I am rude, sorry, but try to put yourself in my shoes!

[EquALLity]

^Your arguments are that things you see apparently confirm the flat earth conspiracy theory because the fact that Earth is round doesn't explain them (according to you), and you ask us to explain why it in fact does explain them.
But then you go on to say that you won't accept a round earth explanation anyway, because the concept of a round earth 'contradicts' what we see everyday.

That doesn't make sense. You're using circular logic.

"The earth is flat because it explains things a round earth doesn't, and I won't accept any counterarguments because only the flat earth can explain those things."

I don't really know the science behind this stuff, but the idea that the entire scientific community is engaged in a bizarre conspiracy is so ridiculous that I don't think I need to.

[teo123]

I am not claiming that the entire scientific community is involved in a conspiracy. I am claiming that they don't check what they are being told by the authorities.
And if you can't explain those things, the answer to most of them being very obvious if the Earth is flat, what's your justification for believing that the Earth is round?
If you can explain those things, then I might change my belief. I can't promise, but I want to believe the truth. And it might be very important to know whether the Round Earth Theory accounts for those things.
That's like asking what would it take you to believe in God. I simply don't know. I think I would change my belief if God appeared to me, maybe even if all of my arguments against the existence of God were proven invalid… But I don't know that yet.

[EquALLity]

I am not claiming that the entire scientific community is involved in a conspiracy. I am claiming that they don't check what they are being told by the authorities.

So the authorities of the scientific community are involved in a bizarre and pointless conspiracy?
...Why?

And you think the overwhelming majority of the scientific community is unskeptical, then?

And if you can't explain those things, the answer to most of them being very obvious if the Earth is flat, what's your justification for believing that the Earth is round?

I'm not even going to contemplate them until you justify the idea that the scientific community is completely screwed up.

My justification is the scientific consensus.

If you can explain those things, then I might change my belief. I can't promise, but I want to believe the truth. And it might be very important to know whether the Round Earth Theory accounts for those things.

Maybe someone who has studied this should answer your questions.

My problem in the last post was that you were using circular logic to justify ignoring potential opposing arguments.

That's like asking what would it take you to believe in God. I simply don't know.

Evidence or a logical argument would convince me. Would they not convince you?

I think I would change my belief if God appeared to me,

This wouldn't work for me, actually.
It would seem much more likely I would have been hallucinating than that something supernatural exists.

Would you believe vampires exist if you 'saw' Dracula appear? Or would you think you were dreaming/hallucinating/imagining?

maybe even if all of my arguments against the existence of God were proven invalid

Your arguments being invalid doesn't automatically mean that there is a god; it just means you can't disprove the concept of a god.

The burden of proof is still on theists.

[teo123]

Look, the reason why would someone want us to believe that the Earth is round when it is flat is very obvious. You need to understand that other planets, according to the Flat Earth Theory, are no more than a meter in diameter and are very close (only 3100 miles) to the Earth. That means that there is no need to explore them. On the other hand, if the Earth is round, they are other worlds, just like the Earth is, and they are worth exploring. So, if the Flat Earth Theory is correct, NASA is probably trying to delude us that the Earth is round so that it can collect our money for the space exploration. Then it uses a portion of that money to fake that space exploration, and the majority of the money is still left to those who make the conspiracy.