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[Philosophical Vegan]

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[Margaret Hayek]

https://www.patreon.com/philosophicalvegan

This will help us cover hosting costs, and work on improving the site and Wiki as well as reaching out to other platforms like Youtube to spread a positive and reasonable vegan message.

Whether you can contribute or not, thank you all for your support and being members of the community!

Wiki Link: http://philosophicalvegan.com/wiki/index.php/Main_Page
Patreon Link: https://www.patreon.com/philosophicalvegan

I see that you will accept $200 to sponsor a flyer. Would you accept a certain amount of money to sponsor a Youtube video? I have in mind in particular a Youtube video proposing alternatives to vegan advocates to using arguments like NTT in various contexts. This could range from both superior "full Monty" ethical arguments for the right contexts, to advice on how to modulate tone (and e.g. not go "full Monty") in other contexts - like street advocacy (cf. discussion between brimstoneSalad and myself on the wiki questions section of the forum). I wonder if, given that you've recently been mentioned by Youtube channels that are much larger than yours (Ask Yourself's isn't huge at 13,000, but it's much larger than yours, and as has been pointed out on the forum much of the attention to Ask Yourself may have to do with the fact that he has the ear of Vegan Gains, who has over 300,000 subscribers; also you of course have the continued support of Unnatural Vegan, at about 120,000), now would be a good time to really get into the Youtube game.

[NonZeroSum]

I see that you will accept $200 to sponsor a flyer. Would you accept a certain amount of money to sponsor a Youtube video? I have in mind in particular a Youtube video proposing alternatives to vegan advocates to using arguments like NTT in various contexts. This could range from both superior "full Monty" ethical arguments for the right contexts, to advice on how to modulate tone (and e.g. not go "full Monty") in other contexts - like street advocacy (cf. discussion between brimstoneSalad and myself on the wiki questions section of the forum).

That could be really great, as it's the "if you wouldn't do x to a human, then what makes it okay do do x to an animal?" that Isaac credits himself with promulgating, which isn't at all objectionable, it's the "you failed to comprehend the airtight meta-ethical premises I put round it that tell you you're wrong" bull. We could draw up scripts for reverse engineering the arguements against veganism, as Brim began to do with FriendEd. I think for it to come across well though we'd need to do some street advocacy until we found a good interview and just play back the tape providing commentary.

I'd just chip in what you feel comfortable as I'm sure you'd want to help with the process anyhow. Brim can maybe tell you at what time realistically can give that full attention. I have a youtube video in mind showing a highlight reel of the controversy with AY, but it's mainly to try and provoke SisyphusRedeemed into making more vegan philosophy videos, but I'm not nearly as motivated at unpicking all the formula the way you guys are.

Also It's been over a month since the introduction video, we should really put the open letter to matt videos up, I think any introduction would just look clunky on top of particular video style, he says multiple times in the video this is collab project from the members of the forum, "Mirror" in the title and done I reckon.

https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B8g-aCUkn-onRVN3RWhUMzZiN28

[Margaret Hayek]

I see that you will accept $200 to sponsor a flyer. Would you accept a certain amount of money to sponsor a Youtube video? I have in mind in particular a Youtube video proposing alternatives to vegan advocates to using arguments like NTT in various contexts. This could range from both superior "full Monty" ethical arguments for the right contexts, to advice on how to modulate tone (and e.g. not go "full Monty") in other contexts - like street advocacy (cf. discussion between brimstoneSalad and myself on the wiki questions section of the forum).

That could be really great, as it's the "if you wouldn't do x to a human, then what makes it okay do do x to an animal?" that Isaac credits himself with promulgating, which isn't at all objectionable, it's the "you failed to comprehend the airtight meta-ethical premises I put round it that tell you you're wrong" bull. We could draw up scripts for reverse engineering the arguements against veganism, as Brim began to do with FriendEd. I think for it to come across well though we'd need to do some street advocacy until we found a good interview and just play back the tape providing commentary.

I'd just chip in what you feel comfortable as I'm sure you'd want to help with the process anyhow. Brim can maybe tell you at what time realistically can give that full attention. I have a youtube video in mind showing a highlight reel of the controversy with AY, but it's mainly to try and provoke SisyphusRedeemed into making more vegan philosophy videos, but I'm not nearly as motivated at unpicking all the formula the way you guys are.

Also It's been over a month since the introduction video, we should really put the open letter to matt videos up, I think any introduction would just look clunky on top of particular video style, he says multiple times in the video this is collab project from the members of the forum, "Mirror" in the title and done I reckon.

https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B8g-aCUkn-onRVN3RWhUMzZiN28

Great; thanks. How about I chip in the $200 (or perhaps a bit more, if that would help with this), since sponsoring this seems at least somewhat analogous to sponsoring a flyer. Perhaps my doing so could indicate the extent to which I really think this would be a good idea, and the extent to which I think that you / we should really strike while the iron is hot to jump into the Youtube game.

[NonZeroSum]

Great; thanks. How about I chip in the $200 (or perhaps a bit more, if that would help with this), since sponsoring this seems at least somewhat analogous to sponsoring a flyer. Perhaps my doing so could indicate the extent to which I really think this would be a good idea, and the extent to which I think that you / we should really strike while the iron is hot to jump into the Youtube game.

I'm just worried about over-promising also. The patreon started so we could all chip in for service costs, since it went over that it's been a tipping jar for brimstoneSalad's work on the wiki, with the idea to pay for his time creating leaflets in the future. I'd be really happy working on a video with you over the next month and saying any money you donate to the patreon we put aside for real world costs like printing leaflets, but would have to get collective agreement on that, this is just a conversation on finance and tiers we haven't properly had yet.

[Margaret Hayek]

Great; thanks. How about I chip in the $200 (or perhaps a bit more, if that would help with this), since sponsoring this seems at least somewhat analogous to sponsoring a flyer. Perhaps my doing so could indicate the extent to which I really think this would be a good idea, and the extent to which I think that you / we should really strike while the iron is hot to jump into the Youtube game.

I'm just worried about over-promising also. The patreon started so we could all chip in for service costs, since it went over that it's been a tipping jar for brimstoneSalad's work on the wiki, with the idea to pay for his time creating leaflets in the future. I'd be really happy working on a video with you over the next month and saying any money you donate to the patreon we put aside for real world costs like printing leaflets, but would have to get collective agreement on that, this is just a conversation on finance and tiers we haven't properly had yet.

Sure. If I understand you correctly, it sounds like like the best way I could help with a Youtube video project would be to contribute in kind (e.g. helping with a script; in terms of actual production I'm pretty ignorant about how that's done, but I could do my best to learn) rather than financially. I'd be happy to do that (although I can't say quite how much time I'll have over the next month, I can contribute what I'm able).

[brimstoneSalad]

Script can be done pretty easily, 3-4 hours, then you could give feedback on it... the tricky parts are the audio and video editing.
I think NonZeroSum and I are of the same mind about the concern of over-promising. Video editing is hard and can take an unpredictable amount of time.

Here's the patreon reply:

Hi, and thanks for your pledge!
It's possible, but I'm not very familiar with video editing and I can't guess on the time it would take to make (unlike a flyer). I'd hate to guess and then over-promise.
We plan to make some videos, but it could take a while to figure out. Might be a good future pledge level though! I'll post an update when I learn more about the pipeline.

I would also add that, I'm unsure of the efficacy of videos unless we could crank them out at a really consistent rate, like once a week to keep people engaged. Making a video once every couple months isn't good practice on youtube.
We'd probably want a once a week 15-30 minute long video.

If it's just a one-off video, I think a flyer would be more effective because that could be printed and handed out at events, left at vegan restaurants, etc. and probably reach a fair number of people over the years through more direct contact. It would only take the printing and shipping costs for ongoing efficacy.
If we can make regular videos, that would probably beat the impact of a flyer.

Red volunteered to do audio, and he did a great job in the intro, but I'm not sure if he could keep up with a demanding schedule like that. (Thoughts, Red?)

We could mix and match different voices depending on who has time for different videos... but to have a really reliable source we may need to have a backup plan to pay for voice acting... and that might be anything from $20 a video to $100 a video or more for a professional.
$80 a month isn't going to pay anybody's rent, so to have 100% reliable on-time work it would probably be toward the higher end.

It's pretty much consensus that I sound like a robot lecturer designed to put people to sleep... even if I did have a good setup.

I should probably do video editing because it's very time consuming, but I just don't know how long it would take.

Unfortunately, beyond $100-ish I can't keep working for $3-$5 an hour because it pushes into other stuff too much and I get into trouble .
I have to do less of other things to find the time, so it might take up to $10 an hour to be viable for me (I'd normally make $20-ish when I take jobs doing something I don't like to do, of course I'd rather do this).

If I were to take a wild guess, I could maybe do it in ten hours. I don't think I could afford to promise that for less than $100.
It would take 3-4 hours to write a script, and that's a little more reliable a time guess than the video editing. Adding another $30 would make that reasonably reliable.

$130 for script + editing, then +$20 - $100 for voice acting... $150 - $230 per video is probably enough to make a pretty safe promise.
But to make it worth it and get a viable number of views coming in we'd need more regular updates.
4 a month would be $600 - $920.
I could set a new goal at $1000 to do videos, but that seems impossibly high right now. It's pretty uncomfortable to guess on it without having everything perfectly lined up, and having tested the production pipeline.

That said, I guess we could try one for $200 and see how it goes? Might learn something, although it'll probably be very late, I guess we can afford that to start out.

What do you guys think? Red? Margaret? NonZeroSum?

[NonZeroSum]

Sure. If I understand you correctly, it sounds like like the best way I could help with a Youtube video project would be to contribute in kind (e.g. helping with a script; in terms of actual production I'm pretty ignorant about how that's done, but I could do my best to learn) rather than financially. I'd be happy to do that (although I can't say quite how much time I'll have over the next month, I can contribute what I'm able).

Toats, really great to have you helping out, we saw your comments on youtube and patreon a while back and found them really useful and articulate.

http://philosophicalvegan.com/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=3001
http://philosophicalvegan.com/viewtopic.php?f=27&t=3223

I think by the time we reach £200 donations from those not big time participants in the forum we should be up to speed at 1 video a month. It's just good to keep in mind what the patreons want and emphasis as you say we're new at this, the wiki and youtube channel has only recently gone up, but forum is getting more active which is great.

[Margaret Hayek]

Sure. If I understand you correctly, it sounds like like the best way I could help with a Youtube video project would be to contribute in kind (e.g. helping with a script; in terms of actual production I'm pretty ignorant about how that's done, but I could do my best to learn) rather than financially. I'd be happy to do that (although I can't say quite how much time I'll have over the next month, I can contribute what I'm able).

Toats, really great to have you helping out, we saw your comments on youtube and patreon a while back and found them really useful and articulate.

http://philosophicalvegan.com/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=3001
http://philosophicalvegan.com/viewtopic.php?f=27&t=3223

I think by the time we reach £200 donations from those not big time participants in the forum we should be up to speed at 1 video a month. It's just good to keep in mind what the patreons want and emphasis as you say we're new at this, the wiki and youtube channel has only recently gone up, but forum is getting more active which is great.

Aw; thanks, that's very kind of you. Yes, I mostly like to remain anonymous and relatively low-profile, because (i) I like to be able to say things online about political-like issues (especially regarding the adherents of Critical Theory) that could really get me into trouble at my work (which is overrun by Critical Theorists), I have a job which is such that it is very difficult for me to find another one like it, and I have a family to support; (ii) I really, really, don't think that it is worth the risk to my family and myself for me to prominently and identifiably go up against Critical Theory, especially given my assessment that other issues (primarily: maximally reducing harm to non-human animals) are in themselves far more important and sufficiently independent from worries about the influence of Critical Theory; and (iii) I already spend far too much time commenting on things like this online (it's so bloody addictive!), and I worry that my spending-time-online-commenting habit will become that much worse if I'm less anonymous or higher profile. I just really got sucked into this one this time. I really hope that I don't end up paying for it...

[Red]

I am so sorry, I didn't see the responses here.
Anyways, I'd be thrilled with helping out! I'll tell you when I have time, of course.
If video making goes smoothly, and real life doesn't get too involved, I can probably finish each video I make in roughly 1-2 weeks.