Hello

[Vita_Orlando]

Hi everyone! I came across your forum and was pretty impressed by the quality of discussion. I'm not currently a vegan, or even a vegetarian though I think it would be the right thing to do. (I'm totally the target audience for stuff like fast food Impossible Burger - the lower the effort required, the more likely I am to change my behavior)

I recently lost my local philosophy discussion group, and I'm interested in talking to and learning from all of you.

[Red]

Hey Vita! You've come to the right place. Feel free to ask us any questions on your vegan journey. We also have plenty of Philosophical discussions, so feel free to jump right in.

I think it's great to start with mock meats. If you want to become more acclimated to vegetables, I suggest eating them with a food you like: for instance, you can eat spinach with mashed potatoes, or like eat an impossible burger with veggies on them. Also don't be afraid to prepare them with plenty of spices to make them even tastier.

[Vita_Orlando]

Thanks! I think I'd do okay by myself - it's interpersonal issues that make it easier for me to rely on convenience. A staunchly opposed spouse and a picky preschooler are my main challenges.

Last year we all went pescatarian for Lent which went okay - going to try something like that again.

[Jebus]

Welcome Vita.

Am I correct in assuming that you agree with the ethical, environmental and nutritional claims of veganism, but for habitual, traditional, and (taste) preferential reasons you have not yet made the change?

Is your spouse religious? Why else would an atheist observe Lent?

[Vita_Orlando]

I agree with the ethical and environmental claims of veganism as they apply to my particular situation, which is similar to that of most middle class Americans. I'm not actually sure what the nutritional claims are - I've seen many different health claims, some of which I agree with and some of which I don't. I think health wise, being vegan would benefit me and my family overall compared to the standard American diet which is what we eat now. I'm not sure that a vegan diet is *optimal* nutritionally, but I don't think it needs to be. Given the ethical and environmental issues, I think "adequate" on the nutrition side is fine. Especially since I would call the SAD inadequate.

My issues are less about my own attachment to habit, tradition, and taste. Those things are there, but individually, they pose only a minor barrier. When I lived alone I was vegetarian at home just because I found it more convenient, not for any thought-out reason.

The barrier for me is more about interpersonal relationships, especially in my marriage. One of personal weaknesses, which I am working on, is that I can be very conflict avoidant. I've gotten better about it, but this will be huge. To be clear - no concerns about violence or abuse or anything of that nature. I forsee long stretches of passive aggressive resistance punctuated by intense arguments no matter how chill I am about a transition. I don't think it would endanger the marriage, we'd get through it eventually, but I anticipate a lot if work. Not least since when we got together (17 years ago) there were like three things my spouse wanted me to promise: don't cheat on him, don't lie to him, and don't be a vegetarian. As a highly logical person, he knows the last one is irrational, which is why we will get through it. But that's the emotional intensity level we're dealing with.

Re: Lent - I'm an agnostic christian (I find the religion as I practice it personally useful - not too concerned with truth claims). Spouse is an atheist, but he sees the value of practicing a period of restriction so he joins me in the exercise of lent.

[brimstoneSalad]

Hi Vita, welcome! We'd be glad to help you with any challenging arguments, I hope you can overcome that anxiety and start broaching the subject carefully.

It might help to start with reducetarian and introducing some mock meats like beyond burger into the meal rotation. A lot of hesitancy from people comes from fear about not having anything to eat. Or maybe he just irrationally hates vegetarians from some kind of past experience? But being atheist is a good start because at least there's no insurmountable supernatural argument that can't be addressed there.

[Vita_Orlando]

That's exactly where we're starting. I broached the topic this weekend and it went surprisingly well, actually. I think it helped that I basically kept everything about my own choices. I didn't ask him to change anything or commit to anything.

I think his negative opinions have a lot to do with his relationship with his grandparents and spending a lot of time on their farm. They were his moral models, so I think rejecting animal agriculture is emotionally loaded.

[brimstoneSalad]

I'm glad it went well. That makes a lot of sense about his childhood. It's hard to rationalize how animal agriculture can be bad and yet the farmers aren't bad people; it's important to separate people and actions, but also to recognize it's the *demand* that's harmful. People just doing their jobs and keeping a roof over their family's head aren't bad, they're doing what they have to. If people demanded lentils instead, farmers would grow lentils.