Ukraine reprezent

[Jebus]

Again, while it may be true, it's still an appeal to nature argument. Kind of like when evangelicals say homosexuality is unnatural because we were anatomically designed to reproduce via straight sex. Can be a slippery slope in some ways.

The difference is that your example is a non-sequitur. Despite the reproductive shortcomings, homosexuality is very natural (or common in nature).

[brimstoneSalad]

I didn't say I dislike it, just less fond of the approach. They're still better than whatever I left out of that list.
NU or NC just seems logical based on my experience.
I like what this guy wrote:
http://jiwoonhwang.org/pro-mortalism/

I hope you haven't been in any sense convinced by Benatar's Asymmetry argument, that one has been widely debunked. Here's an outline of some of the core logical problems and misrepresentations it makes: wiki/index.php/Antinatalism#Benatar.27s_Asymmetry

Negative utilitarian arguments are more interesting, I'll have to read into those you linked to.

Why does NU seem more logical based on your experience? That implies that something in your experience demonstrates a contradiction in classical utilitarianism. Otherwise, no one thing is more or less logical than another if neither contain an apparent contradiction. Logical consistency is not so much a matter of degree as an either-or.

If both options are logical (and neither has a contradiction) your choice of NU implies you are choosing it for other emotional reasons such as a dislike of classical utilitatianism or altruism (at least by comparison), so I'd be interested in where you find the contradiction if that's not the case. Or if you do like NU and comparatively dislike CU and Altruism for other emotional reasons, I'd be interested in why.

[Armoreska]

What's your channel name? I'm assuming Armoreksa?

I didn't say I had a channel per se.
And though I do, it's not very useful. I do have some cool playlists:
https://www.youtube.com/user/GeneralArmorus/playlists

"Do you take a supplement? I'm not sure what the situation is like over there."
A spray, yes. Now that I can afford it. Apparently there's a needle as a painful alternative.

"Is it the tallow you're worried about? I wouldn't be too concerned about that, since tallow is a by-product"
I wasn't born yday, I'm aware. Still it's preferable to avoid using fresh animal byproducts and support vegan businesses when you can.

[Armoreska]

I don't get the anarchist stuff.

Because you haven't looked into it, or because you like the current system?

Shampoo is highly unnecessary. There are lots of ways to keep your hair clean without it. You should learn how to make your own soap. It seems like the only affordable way to avoid palm oil.

You're right. I'm already minimizing its use. What do you suggest?

[Armoreska]

I didn't say I dislike it, just less fond of the approach. They're still better than whatever I left out of that list.
NU or NC just seems logical based on my experience.
I like what this guy wrote:
http://jiwoonhwang.org/pro-mortalism/

I hope you haven't been in any sense convinced by Benatar's Asymmetry argument, that one has been widely debunked. Here's an outline of some of the core logical problems and misrepresentations it makes: http://philosophicalvegan.com/wiki/inde ... _Asymmetry

I'd like to listen to a discussion on that. Reading a document is not very appealing.
I think I've already heard somebody address the opposition. Some options here:
https://www.youtube.com/results?search_ ... +assymetry

"Why does NU seem more logical based on your experience? That implies that something in your experience demonstrates a contradiction in classical utilitarianism."
Intuition? How much of the ultimate suffering are you willing to trade for a lot of ultimate happiness?

See what this says (btw i haven't read it)
https://reducing-suffering.org/negative ... eferences/
https://reducing-suffering.org/happines ... itarianism
and Jiwoon Hwang's blog
and check out the perspective of Glynos and Daily Negativity on YouTube

[Jebus]

Because you haven't looked into it, or because you like the current system?

I haven't looked into it much. I've never seen any compelling arguments and I've never met an intelligent person who believes in anarchy.

You're right. I'm already minimizing its use. What do you suggest?

Wash with bicarbonate. After finish with a mixture of 50% apple cider vinegar and 50% water. Works great for hair that tends to get greasy at times.

If you can find caustic soda where you live, it will be easy for you to make hard soap. Liquid soap requires potassium hydroxide and is slightly more difficult.

[Armoreska]

Because you haven't looked into it, or because you like the current system?

I haven't looked into it much. I've never seen any compelling arguments and I've never met an intelligent person who believes in anarchy.

You're right. I'm already minimizing its use. What do you suggest?

Wash with bicarbonate. After finish with a mixture of 50% apple cider vinegar and 50% water. Works great for hair that tends to get greasy at times.

If you can find caustic soda where you live, it will be easy for you to make hard soap. Liquid soap requires potassium hydroxide and is slightly more difficult.

Sunflower oil + weird dangerous soda from the soap store. Mix and done?
Hmm baking soda for hair, as a scrub? I'll keep that in mind.
No vinegar sold here.

Oddly, I was among those who haven't looked into Ⓐ much just half a year ago.
What in your opinion are uncompelling arguments? Where are you on the political compass / 8values?
I started with youtube playlist "Introduction to Left-Libertarianism by TheLeftLibertarian". Plenty information on YouTube and even whole audiobooks on Audible Anarchist. If anybody wants all of my saved video links, PM me.

[brimstoneSalad]

@Armoreska It's not a long read, it's mostly the diagrams and I linked you right to it.

Where the claim meets a contradiction is that this is not always the case in a comparative assessment. In order to even break even in quantitative analysis, a life would have to contain twice as much pleasure as pain. However, contrary to Benatar's claims, if a life is sufficiently happy, it obviously IS better than non-life even if we blindly accept unjustified double counting of pain; that is if the two scenarios are assessed honestly with a quantitative comparison rather than ad-hoc sanitization of the results.

___________________Existence __________Non-Existence
10 units Pleasure 10 _______________0
2 units of Pain ____-2 _______________2
Total _____________8 (Very Good life) 2 (Slightly good non-existence)

Here existence is clearly preferred (offering more good) than non-existence. So if Bob lives a great life of happiness and contentment and gets a paper-cut once, it IS better that he had lived than not. This should be intuitively obvious, but even if it isn't intuitively obvious it's the only honest conclusion following from a consistent application of measurement standards. Benatar is simply wrong that it is guaranteed that life will always be less than non-life, the result is leaving the question of whether we should or should not have children up to empirical contention. It is plausible (or at least an open question) that a significant number of humans and non-human animals live lives they would consider at least twice as happy and pleasurable as they are sad, and so if used consistently, an honest interpretation of Benatar's asymmetry does not result in broad antinatalism.

The only way Benatar's asymmetry comes to the certain conclusions he wants (that life is always a bad gambit vs. non-life) is to engage in not one, but two forms of unjustified manipulation: Double counting pain AND assessing the results only qualitatively (good or bad) rather than quantitatively (a spectrum).

It may be easier to understand if you read the article. If you have questions, though, feel free to ask them. It would be very useful feedback.

Why does NU seem more logical based on your experience? That implies that something in your experience demonstrates a contradiction in classical utilitarianism

Intuition? How much of the ultimate suffering are you willing to trade for a lot of ultimate happiness?

Intuition is a poor reason for rejecting something when you don't have a sound argument, particularly when the stakes are so high. It's tantamount to blind faith or spiritual gnosis.

Consider that intuition is very often wrong, e.g. people are wildly wrong in their intuitions about mathematics and statistics:
https://towardsdatascience.com/do-you-h ... 76aff941cb

Why would you think your intuition about morality would be spot on? And even more so, why would YOU be right when your intuition is ontnumbered by billions of other people who have the opposite intuition?
If intuition is credible at all, clearly the more common intuition is more likely to be correct.

In terms of trade of suffering for happiness, read the Benatar section: if used honestly, the asymmetry provides for a 2:1 trade.
I don't subscribe to that, though. I consider instead what the person wants. If somebody is willing to trade a certain amount of harm to achieve something we should respect that and consider that the "fair market value" in a sense in the marketplace of ethical exchange.


FYI:
Here's a thread on anarchy: viewtopic.php?f=17&t=175

[Armoreska]

I don't think the possibility of happiness outweighing the suffering makes existence better than non-existence. Simple. Non-existence entails no risk. With existence, some will always get a bad roll.
I treat happiness as normal, not "good" opposed to "bad". I would treat extreme happiness as good, but that has happened much rarer than suffering.

"If intuition is credible at all, clearly the more common intuition is more likely to be correct."
Correct in what way? Does that work with religion? Makes god exist? Makes believing in fantasy good?
The popularity fallacy only means that human animals have evolved to believe something.

I'm not trying to prove this is objective morality. I'm just casting my vote.
Do you agree that safe self-euthanasia should be available to all?

Preferences are great. Some just prefer to have never been born.

[Armoreska]

Does anyone know where Vegan Atheist is at these days?