General philosophy message board for Discussion and debate on other philosophical issues not directly related to veganism. Metaphysics, religion, theist vs. atheist debates, politics, general science discussion, etc.
Lemme just say that I'm a big supporter of sweatshops; They have proven to help lift countries out of poverty and develop economies, and provide better jobs for the citizens of those countries.
However, I've been reading more and more into how cocoa is harvested, and I'm starting to rethink buying chocolate. Unlike the sweatshop situation, this seems more like actual slavery rather than a job.
In 2001, due to pressure applied by the US Congress and potential US and United Kingdom boycotts,[15] the chocolate manufacturers promised to start eliminating forced child labor.[23] In 2012, Ferrero promised that they will end cocoa slavery by 2020.[24][25][26]
In 2018, the U.S. Department of Labor issued a report on labor conditions around the world[27] in which a List of Goods Produced by Child Labor or Forced Labor mentioned five countries where the cocoa industry forced labor, and two countries where the coocoa intdustry forced labor.[28]
News reports as recently as 2018, indicate that "most child slaves on cocoa farms (Ivory Coast and Ghana) come from Mali and Burkina Faso, two of the poorest nations on Earth. The children, some as young as ten, are sent by their families or trafficked by agents with the promise of money. They are made to work long hours for little or no money."[29]
I don’t know about the cocoa issues, but as a potential alternative supposedly carob based products can be used as an alternative to cocoa as it supposedly has a similar flavour (haven’t tried it myself). Though I suppose the harvesting of carob may be similar or comparatively bad to cocoa, so I’ll probably look into this more myself, but at the moment I don’t know much of either. But hopefully if all sources of cocoa are obtained through abuse then hopefully carob may have sources which don’t have the same or similar issues. Of course a lot of store-bought/pre-made stuff uses cocoa rather than carob, so really my suggestion of it as an alternative really would be for homemade stuff you could make with carob rather than cocoa to get a kind of chocolate type fix, I guess.
It's a bit of a situation here. It's unfortunate too, since I recommend people try vegan ice creams like Oatly or So Delicious which use Cocoa Beans from the Ivory Coast.
I'm not familiar with any carob products or companies, they're probably trying to get their foot in the door.
I'm not sure if a boycott would be effective either, but I'll see what brimstone says.
Learning never exhausts the mind. -Leonardo da Vinci
Thank you for the heads-up. It may be something to avoid for some people for other reasons. Cocoa is a processed food and according to Internet info it contains theobromine, cadmium and caffeine.
In my country never came across a cocoa package among the brands commonly sold by retailers that doesn't mention the possibility of containing traces of dairy products.
It's also a good example of misleading food propaganda by the food industry that may even lead some people to ask if "cocoa like chocolate also has anti-oxidants?" Of course the emphasis on the chocolate may be a way to prevent overexposure to the above mentioned substances.
I've never had carob flour, I'm not sure if that's available in my local grocery stores.
Anyway, I've been thinking, if we don't buy Cocoa from them, what will happen to the slaves? I highly doubt they'll be freed, they'll probably just be made to do some other work.
You can also argue that buying cocoa allows more money to flow into their economies, but like this? I don't know.
It's a pretty shitty situation, and trying to make a justification for it makes you seem like a monster, even if you are right.
Learning never exhausts the mind. -Leonardo da Vinci
There are two different situations here: One is people who are in a vulnerable situation and the second is an activity that is taking advantage of it in a way that may be considered criminal with no benefit for the victims. Boycotting the activity may solve the second not necessarily the first. However if one makes the question whether he feels guilty for the first to happen or for supporting the second, which is it?
boitatá wrote: ↑Fri Oct 02, 2020 5:42 am
There are two different situations here: One is people who are in a vulnerable situation and the second is an activity that is taking advantage of it in a way that may be considered criminal with no benefit for the victims.
The important question here is probably whether there is harm to the victims of that situation. If there is no harm, it might be neutral (IF the ones taking advantage of it aren't creating more people in that situation).
However, is the presence of these child slavery industries incentivizing people in poverty to have children to sell into slavery? If that's the case, then they ARE creating more people in that situation through supply-demand economics.
boitatá wrote: ↑Fri Oct 02, 2020 5:42 amBoycotting the activity may solve the second not necessarily the first.
It comes down to whether they're resulting in more people being born into this, and that's a very plausible outcome. If so, boycotting the latter may help mitigate the former.
So @brimstoneSalad what would you say the best course of action is? As fond as I am of cocoa, I'm willing to give it up if it's a serious ethical concern. I usually never do, but maybe fair trade would be a better idea here? Or would that be worse in some way?
Learning never exhausts the mind. -Leonardo da Vinci
Slavery still continues. We can choose to be informed to not contribute to harsh experience of those working as slaves, with our choices, this would be more ethical.
Red wrote: ↑Sat Oct 03, 2020 9:19 pm
So @brimstoneSalad what would you say the best course of action is? As fond as I am of cocoa, I'm willing to give it up if it's a serious ethical concern. I usually never do, but maybe fair trade would be a better idea here? Or would that be worse in some way?
Fair trade might be better. It would possibly be something good to look into for an article. I've heard more criticism of cocoa and coffee lately.
