Trump and Ukraine

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teo123
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Trump and Ukraine

Post by teo123 »

Red wrote:During the Russian Invasion, the US has been the main supporter of Ukraine
I think that you are massively overstating the role the USA plays in shaping the world events.
In Croatia in World War 2, the Partisans arguably won in spite of the US involvement, rather than because of it. The US was at first supporting the Chetniks, rather than the Partisans, and, at the end of the war, it supported neither. Arguably, the US involvement in Croatia in World War 2 just made World War 2 more bloody, without affecting the results of the war.
In Yugoslav Wars, well, it's complicated. Some people here in Croatia think we won the war because of the NATO bombings of Belgrade, but I think those who are better informed about the war think NATO was mostly killing the civilians, without affecting the result of the war.
It's entirely possible that Ukraine will win without the "help" from the US.
It's hard to tell. The basic principles of social sciences say, if anything, that wars are impossible, but that's clearly not the case. It's hard to derive anything about the war from the basic principles of social sciences.
Red wrote:lift the sanctions on Russia
How do you know the economic sanctions on Russia are helping Ukraine? Banning Russia from social media, if anything, makes it harder for Russians to access counter-propaganda and makes them gather around the flag.
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Re: So Trump Won, Is Everything Fucked?

Post by Red »

Teo given your amazing habit of derailing threads, this will be my only response to you here.
teo123 wrote: Fri Nov 08, 2024 2:40 pm I think that you are massively overstating the role the USA plays in shaping the world events.
The US is the world's most powerful and influential country, so I don't think so. Are you aware at all of any history outside of Croatia since the end of WW2?

Sorry that the US is more influential than Croatia, that isn't my fault.
teo123 wrote: Fri Nov 08, 2024 2:40 pmIn Croatia in World War 2, the Partisans arguably won in spite of the US involvement, rather than because of it. The US was at first supporting the Chetniks, rather than the Partisans, and, at the end of the war, it supported neither. Arguably, the US involvement in Croatia in World War 2 just made World War 2 more bloody, without affecting the results of the war.
The thing is Croatia is a very small and irrelevant country, so it probably wasn't much of an investment anyways. And y'know, there are other countries that the US affects and has affected, maybe stop looking through shit through your own myopic lens.

The US doesn't always have things go their own way, doesn't mean their involvement was not impactful.
teo123 wrote: Fri Nov 08, 2024 2:40 pmIn Yugoslav Wars, well, it's complicated. Some people here in Croatia think we won the war because of the NATO bombings of Belgrade, but I think those who are better informed about the war think NATO was mostly killing the civilians, without affecting the result of the war.
In any case killing civilians has serious consequences and implications.
teo123 wrote: Fri Nov 08, 2024 2:40 pmIt's entirely possible that Ukraine will win without the "help" from the US.
They will need to rely a lot on Europe if they want that. The US alone provided 20% of support, and over 75 billion dollars in military aid.
teo123 wrote: Fri Nov 08, 2024 2:40 pmIt's hard to tell. The basic principles of social sciences say, if anything, that wars are impossible, but that's clearly not the case. It's hard to derive anything about the war from the basic principles of social sciences.
And here I thought you couldn't get any dumber.
teo123 wrote: Fri Nov 08, 2024 2:40 pm How do you know the economic sanctions on Russia are helping Ukraine? Banning Russia from social media, if anything, makes it harder for Russians to access counter-propaganda and makes them gather around the flag.
They weren't going to fall for counter propoganda anyway, since the propaganda in their own country is so entrenched, so that makes little difference anyway since they're gathering around the flag regardless. The economic sanctions are really felt though.

Please don't respond here. If you really want to keep discussing this, make a new thread, though I make no promises to respond since I don't like discussing anything with you.
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brimstoneSalad
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Re: So Trump Won, Is Everything Fucked?

Post by brimstoneSalad »

teo123 wrote: Fri Nov 08, 2024 2:40 pm It's hard to tell. The basic principles of social sciences say, if anything, that wars are impossible, but that's clearly not the case. It's hard to derive anything about the war from the basic principles of social sciences.
It should be pretty clear that it's also not the case that any such principles say war is impossible, it's older than recorded human history Teo.
There's a whole field devoted to studying war specifically.

Europe is perfectly capable of taking over from the U.S. if there's political will to do so. Their added GPDs dwarf Russia's.
teo123 wrote: Fri Nov 08, 2024 2:40 pmHow do you know the economic sanctions on Russia are helping Ukraine? Banning Russia from social media, if anything, makes it harder for Russians to access counter-propaganda and makes them gather around the flag.
They're not yet, Russia is still burning through its war chest. It has to be depleted first, and after that sanctions will slow down how fast it can produce and fund infantry and munitions IF Russia can't evade them effectively enough. Ultimately it may even result in economic depression and a coup and change of leadership (though this is something the U.S. does not want).

The main problem is that the U.S. is trying to a thread a needle, avoiding escalation or destabilization of Russia while undermining Russia's war effort, which is making the war take longer.
If the U.S. would go all in, defeating Russia in Ukraine with conventional weapons should be trivial given the relative power of the countries, particularly now that Russia is so weakened. But the current administration doesn't want Russia to lose because (in my understanding) they're worried about all of those Nukes that might find it into bad hands should the regime be destabilized.

Since you are in close proximity, you should learn more about the issue. It may be important to use that knowledge to inform life choices in the near-term.
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Re: So Trump Won, Is Everything Fucked?

Post by teo123 »

brimstoneSalad wrote:It should be pretty clear that it's also not the case that any such principles say war is impossible, it's older than recorded human history Teo.
If I remember correctly, Karl Popper himself explicitly admitted that wars are difficult to make compatible with the Principle of Rationality.
brimstoneSalad wrote:It may be important to use that knowledge to inform life choices in the near-term.
I am not sure what you mean by that. Are you suggesting that I should move to the US because of the remote possibility of the war in Ukranine somehow spreading to Croatia? Don't you think it is way more probable that a civil war will break out in the USA between Trump supporters and Trump opponents?
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Re: So Trump Won, Is Everything Fucked?

Post by teo123 »

Anyway, in case you want to discuss whether a war in Croatia is more likely to occur than Trump starting a civil war in the USA, I've started a new thread about that: viewtopic.php?t=8071
Let's not derail this thread even further.
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Re: So Trump Won, Is Everything Fucked?

Post by aroneous »

brimstoneSalad wrote: Sat Nov 09, 2024 3:04 am They're not yet, Russia is still burning through its war chest. It has to be depleted first, and after that sanctions will slow down how fast it can produce and fund infantry and munitions IF Russia can't evade them effectively enough. Ultimately it may even result in economic depression and a coup and change of leadership (though this is something the U.S. does not want).

The main problem is that the U.S. is trying to a thread a needle, avoiding escalation or destabilization of Russia while undermining Russia's war effort, which is making the war take longer.
If the U.S. would go all in, defeating Russia in Ukraine with conventional weapons should be trivial given the relative power of the countries, particularly now that Russia is so weakened. But the current administration doesn't want Russia to lose because (in my understanding) they're worried about all of those Nukes that might find it into bad hands should the regime be destabilized.
Some of Putin's recent rhetoric has gotten me thinking about this. It looks like a lot of whether or not we will have nuclear armageddon depends on how "suicidal" Russia gets to be feeling. With Putin threatening to use nuclear weapons in response to increased U.S. Military support for Ukraine, he's basically saying, "let me have this war, or I'm going to kill myself and take you down with me". That's a pretty pathetic way to assert your power on the world stage, but I guess that's what he's going for. It's probably also a way to get Americans more riled up against the Democrats before Trump takes office.

This problem of mutually assured destruction is a hard one to solve, and it's difficult to even imagine exactly what a "solution" might look like. I think there are two possible routes to disarmament, one social and one technological. The social one, I imagine, may result from a peaceful change in leadership once Putin dies, and the gradual de-militarization of Russian society, though this is something that may take multiple generations to complete. For the moment I can't really see another leader having the same kind of status and influence as Putin, so I'd like to think that things will settle down a bit once Putin is dead. But who knows, perhaps another one will pop up and assert himself as the "next Putin", and be just as bad or even worse. And I might just be associating this war to closely with Putin as an individual. He might just be someone who is quite willing to present himself as the face of existing problems in Russian government/society, which will persist long after he dies. But, still, I would really like to hope that that's not the case and that this is really just a Putin thing. Russia's been down bad since the end of the Cold War, but they do have a good chance at redeeming themselves if they become more cooperative with the West. The way that governments are, I think, in large part reflect the character of the societies they govern, and I would like to believe that the younger generation of Russians -- that is, those that do survive the war -- will be somewhat more peacefully inclined. But really I have no idea.

Perhaps more realistically, global nuclear disarmament may come about as a result of technological advancement. The U.S. could develop ICBM interception technology along the lines of an "Iron Dome" or "Brilliant Pebbles", and, once it has proved its ability to protect itself from nuclear attacks, force Russia to comply with some kind of policy of enforced disarmament. I think it's pretty unlikely that Russia will be able to develop any such technology. Perhaps they could have had a chance of doing so if they didn't throw themselves into the war with Ukraine and focused more on scientific collaboration with China and other countries, but as it stands I don't see any interesting new technology in this area coming out of Russia for the next few decades at least. So there probably won't be any kind of "arms race" here. Obviously, one enormous challenge will be developing this kind of technology, I've seen the problem of ICBM interception compared to shooting a bullet out of the air. So the U.S. Government's official policy on the matter may currently just be "let's try to buy ourselves enough time until AI can solve this problem for us". Deployment is another huge challenge, it would have to be deployed in secret, all at once, and on a global scale. The development of any such defenses would also have to be done in complete secrecy, and they would ideally want to find a way to demonstrate their effectiveness to the Russians in a way that does not involve nuclear escalation.

People also seem to be quite concerned about Russia and Trump sending us into the next world war, but I'm not particularly worried about that per se. Any kind of "World War III" would probably just be a short bout of conventional warfare that is really just a dramatic prelude to global nuclear destruction. When pitted against Russia, China, North Korea, and the Middle East, the West would win pretty quickly, at which point Russia would just send out its nukes and we will all be dead anyways.
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