Olive oil, cooking oil: Yea or nay?

[miniboes]

I take it you are fat-free because you believe fat is evil?

I think non-saturated fats can be completely harmless, for example nuts don't cause weight gain even though they are high in fat, and generally are very healthy. Pure fat is a different story though.

Do you abstain from eating olive oil? What health benefits do you gain from doing so or not doing so?

Oils do lead to weight gain and therefore I never add it to my food. I do consume foods with oils in it, for example peanut butter and tortillas, because they have health benefits that overpower the problems of oil (peanuts and the vegetables I put on the tortilla respectively). As for the benefits; since I went on a vegan diet, which from the start has been low in oil, I lost over 12kg and generally feel much better about my body. I cannot see from my personal experience whether avoiding oil has been a big factor.

BrimstoneSalad did a good job responding to the rest of your points, so I won't go into that. Please don't listen to your physician when it comes to nutrition, he tells you whatever his mother taught him. For nutrition information I recommend nutritionfacts.org, it is pretty much the best source out there. Michael Greger, the guy that makes the videos and blog posts on that site, is a doctor but gets all his information from the latest science.

[noelle]

I take it you are fat-free because you believe fat is evil?

I think non-saturated fats can be completely harmless, for example nuts don't cause weight gain even though they are high in fat, and generally are very healthy. Pure fat is a different story though.

Do you abstain from eating olive oil? What health benefits do you gain from doing so or not doing so?

Oils do lead to weight gain and therefore I never add it to my food. I do consume foods with oils in it, for example peanut butter and tortillas, because they have health benefits that overpower the problems of oil (peanuts and the vegetables I put on the tortilla respectively). As for the benefits; since I went on a vegan diet, which from the start has been low in oil, I lost over 12kg and generally feel much better about my body. I cannot see from my personal experience whether avoiding oil has been a big factor.

BrimstoneSalad did a good job responding to the rest of your points, so I won't go into that. Please don't listen to your physician when it comes to nutrition, he tells you whatever his mother taught him. For nutrition information I recommend nutritionfacts.org, it is pretty much the best source out there. Michael Greger, the guy that makes the videos and blog posts on that site, is a doctor but gets all his information from the latest science.

I think I'm going to be ill reading what you said. Anecdotal evidence, and one MD is wrong but another MD is right because he has an MD and did a powerpoint slide presentation?

[noelle]

Of course not. It is the calorie to nutrition ratio that is more important. Also important is avoiding harmful substances. Density itself is not important. However, a very high calorie density indicates a probable lack of fiber (because fiber is non-caloric and lowers density), and that IS unhealthy. High calorie density also makes it easy to overeat, which is also unhealthy.

Now, I might be biased because I've never been overweight, but a little common sense tells me that if you eat enough of anything, it will cause weight gain--even vegetables have this property.

What about fat? You seem confused here.

When food is high in fiber, it simply is not physically possible for most people to eat enough to become obese. You literally can not eat enough celery to make yourself fat; you'd probably starve given the energy needed to chew and digest it compared to the calorie content.

Foods with high calorie density make overeating more probable, and in some case it's functionally impossible without them.
Now, if you actually control yourself, that's not a problem, but most people can't or won't do that. So, you have to consider the reality of the situation, and not some ideal world where people are good at math and have self control.

unprocessed vegetable oils are packed with nutrients, perhaps to make up for its rarity in nature.

No, they aren't.
Whole nuts and seeds are pretty high in nutrition, extracted oils (which is inherently a kind of processing) have little to no nutrition beyond calories even when they're not filtered.

Physicians continually research their fields. Because one MD does a powerpoint presentation on Youtube does not mean that he is right while another MD is wrong.

Why does Greece have the highest rate of obesity out of Europe? Because of olive oil? Or perhaps it has something to do with the fact that Greeks love their full-fat yogurt and cheese, and eat them with every meal. Every meal! Even fruit salad is peppered with feta crumbs! Your video doesn't explain or control for why Greece has a high obesity rate.

Furthermore, fat makes you feel fuller, so you eat less. This is the same property of fiber you assume I am 'confused' by. Your body uses this mechanism to prevent overeating. Because some people abuse calorie restrictions by eating more than they should, you are claiming that we have a responsibility to shame oil. Overeating often stems from emotional problems, not the lack of a biological mechanism to alert your brain that you have eaten enough. It is entirely possible to eat more fiber than you should, just as it is entirely possible to eat more oil than you should. It is not your duty to prevent overweight people from feeling tempted by fat. Adding a tablespoon of olive oil to some steamed veggies is not a less-than-optimal choice.

You also claim that oil in its pure form lacks significant amounts of fiber or nutrition. If you are getting significant amounts of fiber and nutrition from a small helping of nuts or olives, you are not eating a balanced diet.

[brimstoneSalad]

Physicians continually research their fields.

No, General Practitioners do not, only specialists do, and only in the field they have a specialization in. Physicians are not experts in nutrition, and very few of them ever study it.

Your physician was not only particularly ignorant on the topic, he was engaged in malpractice. He should lose his license to practice medicine.

Because one MD does a powerpoint presentation on Youtube does not mean that he is right while another MD is wrong.

It has nothing to do with having an MD or making a power point presentation, and you're a hypocrite for being so rude and criticizing others.

I think I'm going to be ill reading what you said. Anecdotal evidence, and one MD is wrong but another MD is right because he has an MD and did a powerpoint slide presentation?

You want to be an asshole? OK, fine. Be an asshole, you're welcome to it. You're good at it.

But stop being a hypocritical asshole. If my strong language offends your dainty sensibilities, then grow a pair, or start behaving yourself and be more polite and I'll respond accordingly.

Got it?

Your physician is an idiot. He's wrong because he doesn't read the research, or he doesn't understand it. His views are in contrast to mainstream scientific consensus and the latest knowledge in nutrition.

Dr. Michael Greger happens to be right not because he's an MD, but because he DOES do the research, and takes pains to understand it and convey that information. He puts in the hours and does his homework, and is in agreement with scientific consensus.

It's the same reason Ken Ham is wrong about evolution and Bill Nye is right. It has nothing to do with the latter being more popular, or having had a science TV show, or the former being a Christian. It's because one is making absurd claims that fly in the face of science and all consensus on the matter, and the other actually understands and honestly conveys that correct consensus, which has been achieved through mountains of research and objective analysis of actual evidence by people equipped to understand it.

You are not equipped to understand the evidence, as you have made amply clear.

And that's fine. We're all ignorant sometimes. But when you're ignorant, focus a little less on making claims that fly in the face of scientific consensus, and more on learning and asking questions.

And not the rude questions that are claims pretending to be questions. There are things we don't know, that doesn't negate what we do know.
If you look, though, you'll find answers to a lot of them.

Furthermore, fat makes you feel fuller, so you eat less. This is the same property of fiber you assume I am 'confused' by. Your body uses this mechanism to prevent overeating.

Again, focus less on making claims, and more on learning.


Here's how you should have said that:

But I thought fat made you feel full, and caused people to eat less, why is it that this doesn't reduce calorie consumption?

That's a great question imaginary nice noelle!

It turns out that by eating a lot of fat, and we're not quite sure how this happens but it has been demonstrated in non-human animals, those mechanisms that make you feel full get desensitized over time.
There are also mechanisms that relate to stress response and addiction that cause those foods to be eaten more. These are areas we're just starting to study more and get a handle on.

So, the self limiting factors of fatty diet don't, in the end, compensate well for the high calorie density, and a fatty diet results in over-eating. These factors don't apply to high fiber foods, which are non-addictive and more difficult to overeat.

Because some people abuse calorie restrictions by eating more than they should, you are claiming that we have a responsibility to shame oil.

No, that's not what I said.

Less strawman, more discussing the actual topic.

It is entirely possible to eat more fiber than you should, just as it is entirely possible to eat more oil than you should.

That's absurd.

You need to learn a little about nutrition.

Fiber is non-caloric. You can not get fat on fiber. It will just physically fill your stomach, and pass through.

If you look at the nutritional profile of vegetables beyond fiber, they're largely protein, complex carbs, and essential fatty acids in trace amounts.

There are numerous reasons people find it nearly impossible to overeat and get fat on vegetables, but moreover, with whole foods it is very difficult to satisfy calorie needs without obtaining good nutrition. With oil, it's very easy to become malnourished on 2,000 calories.

Oil, like added sugar, reduces the nutritional content of your food by increasing the calories without adding to other positive nutritional qualities. This is inherently bad.

Adding a tablespoon of olive oil to some steamed veggies is not a less-than-optimal choice.

The olive oil made the meal less nutritious. However, if adding olive oil encouraged the eating of the vegetables to begin with, the whole meal was probably more nutritious than the alternative.

When you look at nutrition, you look at the whole meal, along with opportunity costs.
Oil adds calories and displaces items of superior nutritional value. However, a small amount of oil in an otherwise great meal may still produce a good meal (it just would have been better without).

You also claim that oil in its pure form lacks significant amounts of fiber or nutrition. If you are getting significant amounts of fiber and nutrition from a small helping of nuts or olives, you are not eating a balanced diet.

So much nutritional ignorance. So much straw man.

Look up the nutrition information for nuts. Look up the nutrition information for oil. Compare them. Be enlightened.

[miniboes]

I think I'm going to be ill reading what you said. Anecdotal evidence, and one MD is wrong but another MD is right because he has an MD and did a powerpoint slide presentation?

Wow, you specifically asked what avoiding oil has done for me and I gave you my experience. It was not anecdotal evidence, it was answering your question. I also explicitly said that I do not know how much of a role avoiding oil had in the process of my weight loss.

Your MD is wrong because he goes against the findings of nutrition research. Michael Greger supports everything he says about nutrition with strong evidence out of mostly peer-reviewed journals, therefore the information he gives can actually be checked and criticized. You need to take all that your GP says on faith, whereas we are provided strong evidence to back all the claims up. In fact, the presentations are mainly composed of segments of the source articles. If you don't want to take what Greger says on faith, then click the "sources" button and check out the research for yourself.

To sum it up; Greger is not right because he has powerpoint slides, he is right because everything he says is supported by peer-reviewed science. Once your GP gives us some studies to look at, we can talk about the worth of his opinion.

[garrethdsouza]

Some here have been unclear or implied that (all) vegetable oils contain trans fats. That isnt true, trans fats are only produced as a byproduct in those vegetable oils that are "refined/processed" industrially using the process of hydrogenation. While this increases their shelf life and other favourable properties like better smoke point it also creates trans fats and removes many of the important phyochemicals making it further away from a "whole plant food".
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trans_fat

" Partial hydrogenation of the unsaturated fat converts some of the cis double bonds into trans double bonds ...which yields a trans fat.[1][2] ... consumption of trans fats has shown to increase the risk of coronary heart disease[6][7] in part by raising levels of the lipoprotein LDL (so-called "bad cholesterol"), lowering levels of the lipoprotein HDL ("good cholesterol"), increasing triglycerides in the bloodstream and promoting systemic inflammation."
as such id avoid use of any refined/partially hydrogenated vegetable oils because of this, even refined olive oil. fully hydrogenated implies that the final product is a saturated fat so again issues with it exist. there have been some questions of the high temperatures used in some refining processes and the addition of hexane as well.
So preferably one could always choose cold pressed aka extra virgin/virgin oils which do not undergo the sort of industrial refining.

Next coming to which (preferably cold pressed) oil one could use, its best to avoid oils which are high in PUFAs as they are way more unstable and prone to degrading into toxic/carcinogenic products than those that have more MUFAs when heated. also one should keep into consideration the omega3:6 MUFA ratio, avoiding oils that have relatively higher in omega6.
i guess extra virgin olive oil (EVOO) is good in this regards as well. regarding rapeseed/ canola oil some suggestions that it isnt a good enough substitute for EVOO are here: Can rapeseed oil replace olive oil as part of a Mediterranean-style diet? https://scholar.google.co.in/scholar?cl ... as_sdt=0,5

generally the lower the temperature one fries at the lesser the amount of volatiles that are produced and also considering virgin oils have lower smoke points its generally better to fry at lower temperatures. contrary to what the abstract suggests olive oil outperformed the rest if you look at the data and conclusion so my bet is for using evoo at low temperatures https://scholar.google.co.in/scholar?cl ... 5&as_vis=1 also in the data see how when compared, the unprocessed versions of olive oil are far superior than the processed/refined olive oil so processed/refined oil in itself is an issue.