What can we eat? Where do we draw the line?

[EquALLity]

- So if we can breed non-sentient livestocks, like those unable to feel or learn -- like i said "Vegetable" organisms, then we can finally eat meat?

I might read the rest of this discussion later and respond to it later, but now I just want to address what you said in the last post.

I think that there wouldn't be any concern if we did that regarding the ethics of killing or abusing animals, but there are still environmental concerns to consider. Funding animal agriculture doesn't just hurt non-human animals, it hurts us also, because of its enormous contribution to climate change, and because it wastes resources.

Also, it doesn't really matter if in some hypothetical world that it would be ethical to eat meat. That doesn't justify doing it in this one. This response to someone who made a similar argument on here explains it:

Even if you accept all of your own reasoning, you have to admit that your claimed justification is false- it does not apply in any way to what you are actually doing.

That's like "justifying" rape with the premise that the girl could have consented if you'd bought her some drinks and taken her for dinner and a movie. Could have, would have, it doesn't matter- it only matters what actually happened.

- Yes, bean producers and other workers also suffer due to their work needing to manually forage beans and things.

You're creating more plant demand by going for the pasta and veggies than the meat, because the animals are fed plants their entire lives.

Also, slaughterhouse workers etc. suffer a lot. http://www.foodispower.org/slaughterhouse-workers/

[Anon0045]

- No good reason to cause suffering, okay can i just point out farmers and any other worker for that matter suffers anyways for good money. So they musn't suffer working or work a hard and suffering job for money? Okay i think you mean suffer in a sense of pain and kill.

No, I mean suffer in the general sense. I also don't see their suffering as anywhere close to the suffering of animals, and like I mentioned briefly regarding the golden rule, it's not only suffering that matters. If a person have the choice between working on a bean farm for little money, be poor, or be killed, most of the times they would choose a life of poverty. Likewise, other species of animals choose life of hardship over death. Should I support industries that cause suffering for these bean producers? I think it wouldn't matter if I didn't, since that would lead to unemployment and likely more suffering.

- So if we can breed non-sentient livestocks, like those unable to feel or learn -- like i said "Vegetable" organisms, then we can finally eat meat?

Yes, and I agree with EqALLity's response.

[The6thMessenger]

Also, it doesn't really matter if in some hypothetical world that it would be ethical to eat meat. That doesn't justify doing it in this one.

I'm not fully doubtful of human technology to improve things. I mean we already have grown meat in a lab, than having to procure it from another living organism. It's the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/In_vitro_meat, yes the part to make it was taken from slaughtered cow, but still it produces somewhat less effects.

As for suffering, Workers suffer too, but the thing is that in whatever effort we put, we suffer some other way. Sure unnecessary suffering must eliminated, but simply eliminating what causes suffering will get us nowhere. Extremes aren't really that good.

[EquALLity]

First of all, you didn't really address what I said about ideal meat vs. actual meat.

If you think that meat will become humane someday, but that it isn't now, then you should stop eating it until it becomes humane. You can't just keep eating it now with the justification of that it might change later.

About worker suffering- Some jobs require harder work in more dangerous situations (like a slaughterhouse worker). Slaughterhouse workers are constantly threatened with losing their jobs, and for the undocumented ones, deportation. That's just one problem.

If we can eliminate those jobs and change them to jobs that aren't as dangerous but require the same amount of work, it won't be as bad, so all the better.

[Anon0045]

The6thMessenger, did you catch the part where I argued that death is worse than suffering? If you do not agree with this, what is your argument? If you do agree with this, then it's clear that we shouldn't ever kill animals, which makes eating meat not something you can do very often. You can eat meat if you find an animal that is already dead and didn't cause the death.

[The6thMessenger]

First of all, you didn't really address what I said about ideal meat vs. actual meat.

Because i wasn't justifying it.

If you think that meat will become humane someday, but that it isn't now, then you should stop eating it until it becomes humane. You can't just keep eating it now with the justification of that it might change later.

No, i'm not eating it now because i was justifying it that it will be humane later. It's just a discussion of what can be eaten or not.

Honestly, what i really care about is the health effects and environmental effects, i care little about animals at all, at least in general.

About worker suffering- Some jobs require harder work in more dangerous situations (like a slaughterhouse worker). Slaughterhouse workers are constantly threatened with losing their jobs, and for the undocumented ones, deportation. That's just one problem.

If we can eliminate those jobs and change them to jobs that aren't as dangerous but require the same amount of work, it won't be as bad, so all the better.

Okay.

The6thMessenger, did you catch the part where I argued that death is worse than suffering? If you do not agree with this, what is your argument? If you do agree with this, then it's clear that we shouldn't ever kill animals, which makes eating meat not something you can do very often. You can eat meat if you find an animal that is already dead and didn't cause the death.

I don't agree with this, at least as an absolute. Because there are times that death is a far better choice than letting someone suffer, like if you're clearly terminal of some disease and really has no hope of getting out of the hospital bed, and everyday you suffer with unending pain at which case death is somewhat better.

As for we shouldn't ever kill animals, honestly i'd kill those that threaten my security like serial killers, home-invaders, i mean really what's stopping them in trying to get "revenge" if i foil their plans. After all humans are also animals, and sometimes worse.

As animals for food, i honestly could only care if i become attached to something like my pet, or otherwise what is not in our culture for eating. Like the difference of live-stocks and wild animals like sharks. I don't have that much same empathy. My concern is the health effects and environmental effects only, and only solving those problems and leaving out the morality problem is enough for me.

As for justifying why, for me it's basically just not illegal... yet. You can say that i am a bad person, and i would agree with you, a childish one for only one-dimensionally -- only looking what is right and wrong through what a government says illegal or not. But really, i just don't have that much of a moral direction like what Vegans have -- i acknowledge it to be wrong, at least based on other people's point of view, and maybe even mine, but i just don't feel the same empathy to livestocks.

I might say, in nature it's just another way of sustenance, with an additional psychological effects. I understand that Rape and other bad stuffs are natural, although i won't do those things out of compassion of from one human being to another, i just don't have the same compassion with livestocks.

But like i said, what i am really concerned about is meat's environmental and health effects, nothing more . The sad truth is that, morality is a concept of the society because it's rooted in our humanity specific guidelines that help social animals like us to not do atrocities to one another for better socialization, resulting in better survival. What is right or wrong is generally what is advantageous and disadvantageous to the society, other times what wrong is what is frowned by the society; Mores, and so even if it's not punishable by law, it can be a deterrent because the certain person will suffer alienation or exile.

Morality changes by culture, by the society that holds it, it is totally possible to have something wrong for one society and right by the other, because Morality is subjective and is not absolute. While the consequences could judge what is right or wrong, consequences themselves are subjective still, and with decisions there are always good and bad consequences and people are usually biased to a specific consequence and disregard another.

tl;dr - morality differs from one person to another, so it's not a good place to appeal to meat eaters because they themselves might be "evil" by your standards, like me.

Anyways, so far only the health and the environmental effects woo me, again i just don't have the same compassion for livestock. If the bad health and environmental effects are negated, death of an animal that is still impersonal to me, i just don't care. "Environmental and Health Effects" as a reason will appeal to most people, because they are selfish bastards and will only care if it affects them personally.

I understand that i may not have justified why i am eating meat, the thing is in our society as a larger group, i don't have to, at least not yet. And it's not going away soon so my little effort won't do anything, yet. I am minimizing though, but i'm not really going Vegan.

My "Line" is what is healthy and good for the environment, not whether it is morally right (to some extent).

[EquALLity]

No, i'm not eating it now because i was justifying it that it will be humane later. It's just a discussion of what can be eaten or not.

Honestly, what i really care about is the health effects and environmental effects, i care little about animals at all, at least in general.

Oh, so you don't eat meat?

Honestly, what i really care about is the health effects and environmental effects, i care little about animals at all, at least in general.

That's not a justification for torturing and killing them against their wills.

You can apply not caring to anything.

"I just don't care about the environment, so I pollute and destroy it."

Not feeling an emotional connection is irrelevant.

[Anon0045]

I don't actually mean that death is always worse than suffering, but most of the times it is. I also don't mean that there are no exceptions to the rule, like killing in self defense. The point is that we should respect someone's wishes, be it human or animal, because you would want others to respect your wishes. Of course there could be dilemmas, but a lot of times there aren't any, like choosing whether to buy animal products or not. In those cases the harm done greatly outweighs the benefits.

If you only care about what's culturally acceptable and do not care about doing what's right or wrong, then you're why are you here arguing? You get no respect from me for that at least. I don't think that it's an acceptable answer or that it in anyway justifies your behavior. A person could be raised in a racist environment, think less of some minority, and they would be just as rational as you are.

[The6thMessenger]

No, i'm not eating it now because i was justifying it that it will be humane later. It's just a discussion of what can be eaten or not.

Honestly, what i really care about is the health effects and environmental effects, i care little about animals at all, at least in general.

Oh, so you don't eat meat?

Honestly, what i really care about is the health effects and environmental effects, i care little about animals at all, at least in general.

That's not a justification for torturing and killing them against their wills.

You can apply not caring to anything.

"I just don't care about the environment, so I pollute and destroy it."

Not feeling an emotional connection is irrelevant.

Nope, i eat meat, but i minimize it.

And again, i am not justifying it because in our current society i don't need to.

I don't actually mean that death is always worse than suffering, but most of the times it is. I also don't mean that there are no exceptions to the rule, like killing in self defense. The point is that we should respect someone's wishes, be it human or animal, because you would want others to respect your wishes. Of course there could be dilemmas, but a lot of times there aren't any, like choosing whether to buy animal products or not. In those cases the harm done greatly outweighs the benefits.

Yeah, but i've been with people and animals that don't give a damn about me so.

If you only care about what's culturally acceptable and do not care about doing what's right or wrong, then you're why are you here arguing? You get no respect from me for that at least. I don't think that it's an acceptable answer or that it in anyway justifies your behavior. A person could be raised in a racist environment, think less of some minority, and they would be just as rational as you are.

Sure, but then thing is we are discussing now are we? This is not just about me, it's a thread for many people to write their bounds, and discuss with other people. I may not have the moral compass you expect me to have, but then there are Vegans that really don't care about animal suffering, they just want to be healthy or take care of the environment, but either way they can be here and voice out their reason.

Yes, racism can be acceptable with the right (or wrong) society, but the thing is that it is now frowned upon, that is why it is considered bad. Years ago, it was acceptable, but now it is not. But the thing is that meat eating is not yet frowned upon today at least by the considerable majority, and it's that thing why i don't have to justify it -- yet.

[EquALLity]

Nope, i eat meat, but i minimize it.

Oh, ok. Do you also minimize other animal products?

And again, i am not justifying it because in our current society i don't need to.

What? Because most people won't condemn you for it, you don't feel the need to have a justification for your actions, even when they are inhumane? So you don't care about being humane and minimizing suffering, you just care about societal norms?

I'm glad you weren't raised in Saudi Arabia.