Olive oil, cooking oil: Yea or nay?

[brimstoneSalad]

Great post Humane Hominid,

Thanks for the details.

Yes, as more of a diet plan (as in for weight loss) added oils are usually unnecessary; I understand why he's leaving them out in that sense.

If you're not trying to lose weight, but just go vegan, and you don't mind the extra calories, then it makes sense to have the option to include the oils- but just use more healthy oils (which won't unbalance your Omega 3:6 ratio, for example).

It sounds like he meant it more of a diet book, in the conventional sense, than as a "how to be vegan" book, or a dogma.

[Humane Hominid]

Great post Humane Hominid,

Thanks for the details.

Yes, as more of a diet plan (as in for weight loss) added oils are usually unnecessary; I understand why he's leaving them out in that sense.

If you're not trying to lose weight, but just go vegan, and you don't mind the extra calories, then it makes sense to have the option to include the oils- but just use more healthy oils (which won't unbalance your Omega 3:6 ratio, for example).

It sounds like he meant it more of a diet book, in the conventional sense, than as a "how to be vegan" book, or a dogma.

That's what's so clever about it, though. It's presented and marketed as a just a "diet" book, but once you read it, you find it's so full of not-bullshit that it's a little off-putting. He makes no bones about the fact that people who want to maintain a healthy weight need to change the way they eat every single day for the rest of their lives, not just for six weeks or 28 days or whatever. He pitches no short-cuts or supplements, and focuses on getting people committed to eating real food and exercising strenuously, forever.

So, in a sense, it is a guide on how to be vegan, but smuggled in through the back door disguised as a diet & lifestyle book. His second book, My Beef With Meat, includes a bit more focus on the environmental and animal rights aspects of veganism, but only as part of a big picture approach. He's marshaling all three main reasons at once, demonstrating how easy it is to synchronize them in your life, and handling it all in such folksy style that it's hard not to be impressed.

Have I mentioned the recipes are, for the most part, delicious?

[cufflink]

There's actually nothing extreme about the Engine 2 Diet. In fact, I'd argue that it's a more accessible take on veganism than most of the other ones I've seen. Full disclosure: I've followed this plan for over a year now, and gotten good results with it, so I'm biased.

That said, here's what makes it easier for mainstream people.

1) It doesn't rely on exotic ingredients that can only be found in health food stores. I've been able to find every ingredient of every recipe in mainstream markets and grocers. Most of them are familiar to most people, and therefore the mental impact of changing to strange new ways is minimized.

2) It's hearty and filling. As the author points out, he had to convince a group of male, Texan firefighters to eat this diet. If they found it delectable and satisfying, most other people should, too.

3) It doesn't require calorie-counting or other complicated activities. Just stick to the approved recipes, and you can eat as much of them as you want, whenever you want.

4) Its recipes aren't strange. They're vegan versions of things everyone (at least in the U.S.) is used to: pizzas, burgers, hot dogs, burritos, stir-fries, tacos, pancakes, etc.

5) Both of his books are written in a breezy, conversational style full of endearing anecdotes about fire-fighter culture or his family traditions. He's never preachy or guilt-trippy, and comes of more like a supportive dad or coach.

EDITED TO ADD: 6) He has two plans -- one for people who want to ease into it, and one for people who want to go full-bore right from the start. For the first group, things are removed and replaced with new options each week -- dairy the first week, meats the second, and so on -- so the ease-in readers have the additional feeling of a safety net, and are able to rely on familiar options while making the transition.

The restriction on added oils is not a burden at all, as oil is largely unnecessary in most recipes that call for it. The reason for leaving them out is that they are pure fat, and thus add unnecessary calories to dishes for people who are trying to lose weight. Once you get the hang of the substitutions, you won't miss added oils at all.

Now, I didn't have much weight to lose, so my main interest was the recipes themselves. And after 10+ years as a vegan, I have to say that I found these to be some of the best there are. They're rib-sticking and last a long time, which is important for me as I do CrossFit and many other physical activities. Engine 2 is a great strategy for cutting calories while still feeling full and not having to think about it.

He doesn't emphasize the animal rights aspect of veganism, but doesn't ignore it, either, so the net effect is that people trying it out for weight loss and improved bio-markers will see the benefits first-hand -- and rather quickly, I might add -- and realize that they can be healthy and also eat the way their conscience demands.

Thanks for your perspective, HH. I'm glad the E2 Diet is working well for you. It does seem like a health-promoting way of eating. I'm not as much a fan of Rip's folksy style as I think you are, but I agree he reaches more people that way. For me, however, the oil taboo doesn't work, since I'm not primarily interested in weight loss and I want to continue to enjoy the traditional ethnic dishes I love that are vegan to begin with or can be successfully vegan-adapted. Omitting the meat in my Persian eggplant sauce is not a big loss; omitting the oil changes the character of the dish. That said, I'm always eager to try new things, and I've been enjoying some of Rip's recipes, in particular his soups. The Savory Lentils and Greens soup is terrific!

[FreeToRoam]

I use olive oil seldomly. Ive been using grape seed oil for frying and coating.

No Oil! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b_o4YBQPKtQ

[noelle]

Olive oil has a low smoke point, which is why I avoid it in cooking. Burnt olive oil does not smell good.

Is there any evidence that minimally processed vegetable oils lead to health problems? I'm curious to see if this is the case, since the consensus in this thread seems to be "oil is an unhealthy treat."

[miniboes]

Olive oil has a low smoke point, which is why I avoid it in cooking. Burnt olive oil does not smell good.

Is there any evidence that minimally processed vegetable oils lead to health problems? I'm curious to see if this is the case, since the consensus in this thread seems to be "oil is an unhealthy treat."

Firstly, vegetable oils are the only vegan source of trans fats, one of the worst nutrients I know of.
In any case vegetable oils are fattening, so that is one unhealthy trait.

Here's a talk by Michael Klapper:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OGGQxJLuVjg

[noelle]

Olive oil has a low smoke point, which is why I avoid it in cooking. Burnt olive oil does not smell good.

Is there any evidence that minimally processed vegetable oils lead to health problems? I'm curious to see if this is the case, since the consensus in this thread seems to be "oil is an unhealthy treat."

Firstly, vegetable oils are the only vegan source of trans fats, one of the worst nutrients I know of.
In any case vegetable oils are fattening, so that is one unhealthy trait.

Here's a talk by Michael Klapper:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OGGQxJLuVjg

I take it you are fat-free because you believe fat is evil?

Interesting video. My physician told me the opposite two years ago: Fat is metabolized first and does not contribute to weight gain, especially if you eat a diet low in carbohydrates. He wasn't paleo or anything like that; he was merely espousing widely accepted medical facts. Carbs store longer than fats; fats are burned into energy ASAP. Carbs stick around and create problems.

Calorie-density is not an indication of 'unhealth.' Now, I might be biased because I've never been overweight, but a little common sense tells me that if you eat enough of anything, it will cause weight gain--even vegetables have this property. Oils are meant to be consumed in small amounts, and unprocessed vegetable oils are packed with nutrients, perhaps to make up for its rarity in nature.

Do you abstain from eating olive oil? What health benefits do you gain from doing so or not doing so?

[brimstoneSalad]

Interesting video. My physician told me the opposite two years ago:

Physicians are not dietitians, nor are they properly educated on nutrition. Almost any GP practicing as a nutritionist is engaged in some form of malpractice.

Most General Practitioners are Idiots who are too arrogant to recognize where their skills end and other disciplines begin. An honest GP should refer you to a dietitian for serious nutrition advice, or in the very least administer it with a grain of salt; it's as simple as that.

Fat is metabolized first and does not contribute to weight gain, especially if you eat a diet low in carbohydrates.

No, ONLY if you eat a diet very low in carbohydrates, and this is an extremely unhealthy diet. It puts the body in a state called ketosis. Carbohydrates are the preferred, and ideal, form of energy for the body because they are metabolically much easier on the system.

He wasn't paleo or anything like that; he was merely espousing widely accepted medical facts. Carbs store longer than fats; fats are burned into energy ASAP. Carbs stick around and create problems.

No, he was espousing ignorant propaganda that he has arrogantly accepted as a medical fact, because he is, like most General Practitioners, an idiot.

Fat isn't evil; we need fat (essential fatty acids, which are unsaturated fats- we do not need saturated fats), and fat can be a decent source of calories making up a small portion of the diet. Carbohydrates are not stored in the body long term, but quickly metabolized (the liver can store them for a few hours); excess is turned into fat and stored in that form (only fat is used as long term energy storage in the body, due to the high energy density).

Calorie-density is not an indication of 'unhealth.'

Of course not. It is the calorie to nutrition ratio that is more important. Also important is avoiding harmful substances. Density itself is not important. However, a very high calorie density indicates a probable lack of fiber (because fiber is non-caloric and lowers density), and that IS unhealthy. High calorie density also makes it easy to overeat, which is also unhealthy.

Now, I might be biased because I've never been overweight, but a little common sense tells me that if you eat enough of anything, it will cause weight gain--even vegetables have this property.

What about fat? You seem confused here.

When food is high in fiber, it simply is not physically possible for most people to eat enough to become obese. You literally can not eat enough celery to make yourself fat; you'd probably starve given the energy needed to chew and digest it compared to the calorie content.

Foods with high calorie density make overeating more probable, and in some case it's functionally impossible without them.
Now, if you actually control yourself, that's not a problem, but most people can't or won't do that. So, you have to consider the reality of the situation, and not some ideal world where people are good at math and have self control.

unprocessed vegetable oils are packed with nutrients, perhaps to make up for its rarity in nature.

No, they aren't.
Whole nuts and seeds are pretty high in nutrition, extracted oils (which is inherently a kind of processing) have little to no nutrition beyond calories even when they're not filtered.

[Humane Hominid]

Carbs store longer than fats; fats are burned into energy ASAP. Carbs stick around and create problems.

Wat?

By what mechanism do carbs stick around, as carbs? Unless you're implying that glycogen is a problem?

[brimstoneSalad]

Carbs store longer than fats; fats are burned into energy ASAP. Carbs stick around and create problems.

Wat?

By what mechanism do carbs stick around, as carbs? Unless you're implying that glycogen is a problem?

Duh, sugar is a carb, and if you've ever got sugar on your hands, you know it's sticky. Common sense dude, come on! All that sticky sugar is obviously gumming up people's bodies! Oil, on the other hand, is an excellent lubricant. It works in cars, it would obviously work in humans too.