Philosophical Vegan Forum

brimstoneSalad wrote:

PrincessPeach wrote: How can you say that human breast milk from a vegan would be vegan?

Human breast milk, willingly given, is vegan. This is unquestioned in the case of children, but there's no logical reason it wouldn't apply elsewhere as well.

I've read countless posts by omnivores criticizing veganism because babies would die without breast milk- which is missing the whole point of veganism.

Veganism isn't a blind dogma, but has to do with avoiding unwilling exploitation. Because non-human animals can not clearly consent to their being used, and said use involves generally cruel exploitation, animal products are rejected.

Human products, willingly given -- be that breast milk, hair (for example, donated for wigs), blood donations, or even Semen (as in the case of oral sex- yes, vegans are allowed to have oral sex too) -- are the only animal products broadly considered vegan.

Other species, who can not consent, raise red flags.

Although in those cases, there is debate within the vegan community which falls along the lines of (usually) the consequentialists who favor a broader and more inclusive definition which follows the spirit of the law, and the more conservative deontologist-minded who are more hard-line on the letter.

Eggs from rescue hens (which would otherwise go to waste), have been a major point of debate. We have a thread on that here, actually.

Here you go:

http://theveganatheist.com/forum/viewto ... f=22&t=114

PrincessPeach wrote: Oh I forgot humans are not animals right...? To be vegan one needs to abstain from all animal products, humans are animals so our milk would be an animal product which technically speaking is not vegan even though it came from a human!

Humans are animals. But it's not that simple.

PrincessPeach wrote: The cheapest thing would be to give up the idea of cheese altogether! Why would one want to replicate moldy rotten animal milk any ways...

To save the lives of animals.

You may not have met very many omnivores who love cheese- or many vegetarians. Cheese is a major stumbling block for many people.

Replacing it eases the transition to a world where animals are treated with real respect and kindness- a world which human cognitive dissonance forbids as long as our hedonistic practices are exploiting them.

PrincessPeach wrote: Everyone needs to be weaned completely from animal-milks unless you are a nursing child!
I agree with TVA, daiya cheeze is already out there!

Daiya is fine for some people. For other people, it tastes like a mouth-full of oily paste. It is not indistinguishable from cheese by any stretch, and for most people it is not an acceptable replacement.

Only by providing superior replacements are we guaranteed to liberate people from the evil grip of the cheese empire.
That's only likely to happen with a chemically analogous replacement for the structural properties of casein.

We are vegetarians from birth until we are weaned plain and simple...
I just weaned my son from my vegan breast milk not that long ago..


Dairy of any sort releases a hormone called oxytocin which makes it pleasurable to drink...
Any one in a transition phase will most likely not like cheese alternatives and will continually be let down by taste and texture of these items because they will never release that pleasure stimulating hormone...
I would say the best way to transition is to not eat any cheese like dairy products ... Home made nut or seed milks are really good !
Besides their palette is not used to foods like we are so at first it is really gross... Dairy is something that your body withdrawals from and craves, it makes sense to just cut the idea of it out until you are a more established vegan and your palette and mind state has changed...

PrincessPeach wrote: We are vegetarians from birth until we are weaned plain and simple...
I just weaned my son from my vegan breast milk not that long ago..

If you are suggesting that children can not be vegan from birth, you will find that you are in the vast minority with that opinion. Mother's milk is broadly considered vegan by the vegan community, plain and simple.

If you don't understand this, search the internet for: "Is breast milk vegan?"

You will find numerous discussions on the subject- largely by omnivores or novice vegans who are confused on the subject, being set straight by experienced vegans.

Your son is and has always been vegan- your milk didn't make him non-vegan. And licking the milk off your wrist after testing the temperature (if you reheated) didn't make you non-vegan.
Swallowing our own blood when we bite our tongues, or get nose bleeds doesn't make us not vegan.

If you believe otherwise, you are simply mistaken about what "vegan" actually means.

Even the vegan society- the original society that invented the term "vegan" and arguably has a priviledged position in being able to define it- is clear on this point.

The Vegan Society wrote: The first food for a vegan baby should ideally be breast milk.

The only people I've seen seriously argue that breast milk isn't vegan for babies are carnists who are trying to discredit veganism.

PrincessPeach wrote: Dairy of any sort releases a hormone called oxytocin which makes it pleasurable to drink [citation needed]
...

That's a bizarre claim. Please do more due diligence on things like this.

Even IF there was any meaningful amount of oxytocin in milk, it can not be administered orally in adults- the only known routes are nasal administration, or injection (with both having mixed results on the brain).

Unless you're snorting the milk, or injecting it into your veins, you don't get any oxytocin from just drinking it.

That said: Milk has negligible oxytocin content anyway, so it's not an issue (only milk produced and nursed immediately after delivery has meaningful oxytocin levels).

This may be relevant for infants right after birth, but not to adults consuming dairy.

PrincessPeach wrote: Any one in a transition phase will most likely not like cheese alternatives and will continually be let down by taste and texture of these items because they will never release that pleasure stimulating hormone...

Casein-based soy cheeses -- that is with isolated casein -- are virtually indistinguishable from many varieties of cheese.
They have a limited market in the lactose intolerant, because they are not acceptable to vegans.

Oxytocin has nothing to do with it.

That said: the primary goal of creating a vegan casein is to replace cheese for people who would otherwise be uninterested in veganism.

If the product is literally identical, and can not be distinguished, consumers will have less of an issue in changing their practices. Particularly, many long term vegetarians may also go vegan and drop dairy consumption.

PrincessPeach wrote:I would say the best way to transition is to not eat any cheese like dairy products ... Home made nut or seed milks are really good !

Some people don't care about going vegan. They just want to eat cheese. If there's no difference between the two, then and only then might they be persuaded to choose the more compassionate option.

Largely, the hedonistic public isn't interested in eating anything that falls short of their expectations, regardless of what should be ethical and environmental concerns.

Nut cheeses are excellent, and for me they are more than adequate. However, I'm thinking bigger picture here.

Take it as a much simpler prototype for the same replacement process lab grown meat would hypothetically go through.