Philosophical Vegan Forum

brimstoneSalad wrote:Any idea what kind of intake is needed to reach 7 mcg, since it's non-linear?
Maybe 600 mcg?

Knowing that 1.5 mcg + 1% are absorbed, to calculate how much mcg you must take to absorb 7 mcg you must do:
7 mcg - 1.5 mcg = 5.5 mcg
5.5 mcg * 100 + 1.5 mcg = about 550 mcg
The funny part about this is, if you take only 1.5 mcg at a time, you should absorb 1.5 mcg. If you take 250 mcg at a time, you absorb only 4 mcg.
Remember that it's approximated.

brimstoneSalad wrote:But, it doesn't hurt to supplement, and I want to be able to have a vitamin that I know I can afford to eat a little junk food on now and then if I need to; and something I can recommend to others, who might be junk food vegans, or not understand the whole Omege3:6 ratio concept.

See the link in the last post I made- that person was talking about how she eats way too much Omega 6, but isn't willing to change her diet. I don't want people like that to get sick.

It's much easier to say "take this" rather than teach somebody nutritional science, or convince somebody who knows nutritional science but is obsessed with junk food to change his or her diet... I've known people who knowingly eat themselves to death.

But at the same time... if it tastes really bad, people won't take it, so including it would be counter-productive if that issue can't be solved.

Definitely true. Better to take a supplement and be sure in those cases.

brimstoneSalad wrote:

thebestofenergy wrote: Regarding Choline, you can have enough of it with a correct diet[...]Same goes for Zinc[...]B2[...]iodine[...]
I currently don't take supplements for these.

Choline isn't actually as easy, unless you eat a lot of soy and cruciferous vegetables.
I tend to eat a lot of soy, so I probably get enough most of the time. I could afford to get more, though- as can most people.

Zinc, B2, iodine... that's all true.
A carefully planned vegan diet can provide everything except B-12. BUT that's not the point of a multivitamin.
A multivitamin is back up, it's a safety net that helps prevent malnutrition when you fall short of that carefully planned diet.
If I'm a poor college student and I eat ramen for a month, I'll almost keel over dead... but ramen and something like this... and I might live to see the next paycheck.

This wouldn't be needed or useful for people eating the ideal vegan diet. But for the rest, and that is most, vegans who eat less than an ideal diet, it could make a big difference.

The point of a genuinely useful vegan multivitamin is to have something to recommend to people who aren't eating the perfect diet, and something that can make that more sustainable and prevent serious nutritional problems down the line.

I agree. That was only for those who can/want to have a well balanced diet.
I thing that a mega-supplement multivitamin with all of those things included would cost a lot.
Probably in the future, when the number of vegans will increase, they will make one for a low price. Besides, that multivitamin would be really useful for non-vegans aswell.

EDIT: I should add that, in fact, you can take 2-3 mcg of cyanocobalamin twice a day, distant from one another, since it's absorbed 1.5-2 mcg at a time.

thebestofenergy wrote:I thing that a mega-supplement multivitamin with all of those things included would cost a lot.
Probably in the future, when the number of vegans will increase, they will make one for a low price. Besides, that multivitamin would be really useful for non-vegans aswell.

Currently, if you want all of that and you buy them separately in retail bulk, you'd need to spend $1-$2 a day. Although that would give you a lot of extra, unnecessary stuff too.

Just what I described, I think it would only cost about 25 cents, US, wholesale each day.
With a retail markup, maybe sold at 50 cents a day.

I don't think that's too bad. At a much larger quantity, the price at retail might get closer to 25 cents too.

I found this http://www.building-muscle101.com/how-t ... ments.html or http://thecoconutmama.com/2013/08/homem ... pplements/
You can make supplements in your house, but it costs too much. You'd have to start selling them, start you own company.

thebestofenergy wrote:I found this http://www.building-muscle101.com/how-t ... ments.html or http://thecoconutmama.com/2013/08/homem ... pplements/
You can make supplements in your house, but it costs too much. You'd have to start selling them, start you own company.

Oh, I didn't mean DIY in a kitchen.

If we had a good formulation, it's better to outsource this kind of thing to a company that can mix and package it, and then handle fulfillment, or contract with a fulfillment house (or possibly Amazon) for that.

We'd need a few hundred people who were interested in ordering it first, though to get the price down.


I've found that emulsification and sufficient antioxidants might be a way to prevent the EPA-DHA from getting rancid from oxidation, but I'm not sure if hydrolytic rancidification can be avoided given the complex formula and the amount of water the hydrophilic choline chloride would bring into the mix.

If we skipped the complications in formulation with the DHA/EPA, we could call up Deva and request a particular formulation (as long as we have a few hundred people interested in a big order, they should make to order).

http://www.devanutrition.com/

I didn't know they only made vegan vitamins, that's cool.

They seem like a good company, I just don't really agree with their formulation for their main vegan multivitamin. And the pill is way too big.

Dental friendly Minty chewable, minus most of the unnecessary bulk (and with good and more useful bulking agents like creatine and calcium, less dry algae), and with more of the things that are most useful.

-B12 = atleast 250 mcg (cyanocobalamin)
-B2 = 1 mg I think would be best

According to the National Institutes of Health (NIH), the Recommended Dietary Allowance (RDA) for is 1.0 mg for female adolescents between the ages of 14-18 years; 1.3 mg for male adolescents 14-18 years of age; 1.1 mg for female adults older than 18 years; and 1.3 mg for male adults older than 18 years. Pregnant women are recommended to take 1.4 mg, and women who are breast feeding should take 1.6 mg. People who are at a higher risk for riboflavin deficiency (see above) should talk with a physician for adequate dosages. Dr. Weil recommends 50 mg as part of a B-50 complex in a daily multivitamin...
...extremely high doses may result in an increased risk of kidney stones. Sensitivity to light, itching, numbness, and burning/prickling sensations may also occur at high dosages. Allergy and anaphylaxis (severe, whole-body allergic reaction) have also been reported, though rarely.

-EPA/DHA = 250 to 500 mg daily of yeast- or algae-derived DHA and/or EPA (as doctor Greger says)
-zinc = ? This is messy. Different people need different amount of zinc, and too much zinc is dangerous (

To prevent zinc toxicity, do not take dietary supplements containing zinc unless you are under the supervision of your doctor.

)

According to the Office of Dietary Supplements, you need somewhere between 2 milligrams and 13 milligrams of zinc daily, depending on your age. Infants need the least and breastfeeding teenagers need the most. A man requires 11 milligrams, while women need 8 milligrams.

I'm not sure about putting zinc in it.
Meaby 10 mg?
-vitamin D3 = 1000 IU
-iodine = 150 mcg
-choline = I'm not sure. I'd go for 500-550 mg

The National Academy of Sciences established an Adequate Intake level of:
men, 550 mcg
women, 425 mcg
pregnant females of any age, 450 mg
lactating females of any age, 550 mg
There is no official Daily Value recommendation, but Dr. Weil suggests a minimum daily intake of 550 mg.

Excessive amounts of choline can cause low blood pressure, vomiting and diarrhea.

This is daily. Anything I'm missing? Should calcium be there aswell (recommended atleast 600 mg daily via calcium-rich plant foods)?

brimstoneSalad wrote:I've found that emulsification and sufficient antioxidants might be a way to prevent the EPA-DHA from getting rancid from oxidation, but I'm not sure if hydrolytic rancidification can be avoided given the complex formula and the amount of water the hydrophilic choline chloride would bring into the mix.

I've no clue about that.

Thanks Energy, great summary

thebestofenergy wrote: -zinc = ? This is messy. Different people need different amount of zinc, and too much zinc is dangerous (

To prevent zinc toxicity, do not take dietary supplements containing zinc unless you are under the supervision of your doctor.

)

According to the Office of Dietary Supplements, you need somewhere between 2 milligrams and 13 milligrams of zinc daily, depending on your age. Infants need the least and breastfeeding teenagers need the most. A man requires 11 milligrams, while women need 8 milligrams.

I'm not sure about putting zinc in it.
Meaby 10 mg?

Yeah, 10mg could work. I don't think it all needs to come from supplementation, because even with a bad diet some will come from food.

I found this:

........Life Stage................Upper Safe Limit
Birth to 6 months.............4 mg
Infants 7–12 months.......5 mg
Children 1–3 years..........7 mg
Children 4–8 years..........12 mg
Children 9–13 years........23 mg
Teens 14–18 years..........34 mg
Adults.................................40 mg

http://ods.od.nih.gov/factsheets/Zinc-QuickFacts/

10mg should be pretty safe for 9 years old on, even if they're getting a lot from diet.
Children could take half. Infants should be getting nutrition from breast milk, not chewable vitamins.

It should even be safe to take three a day (for people who want more of the other vitamins).

This is daily. Anything I'm missing? Should calcium be there aswell (recommended atleast 600 mg daily via calcium-rich plant foods)?

Calcium is huge (and heavy), so that acts as a good filler.

Since a lot of those ingredients are liquid, there needs to be a lot of solid powder mixed in to make it a chewable.

600mg of calcium would weigh about 1.7 grams as Calcium Chloride, and 2.5 grams as Calcium Citrate, 1.8 grams with Calcium Lactate (and about the same for Calcium Gluconate).
1.5 grams with Calcium Carbonate, but that neutralizes stomach acid (it can be useful as a buffer to neutralize any acidic components of a supplement).

No matter what form was chosen, or even a mix of forms, that seems like it might be possible in a roughly 5 gram chewable. The only real harm in a larger/heavier chewable is distribution cost (increased shipping).

I had some calcium fruit chews once- they were largely glucose, but they were pretty good (couldn't detect the calcium in them by taste).


What do you think about Magnesium and vitamin K? Some sources suggest they help with calcium absorption and use.

brimstoneSalad wrote:Calcium is huge (and heavy), so that acts as a good filler.

Since a lot of those ingredients are liquid, there needs to be a lot of solid powder mixed in to make it a chewable.

600mg of calcium would weigh about 1.7 grams as Calcium Chloride, and 2.5 grams as Calcium Citrate, 1.8 grams with Calcium Lactate (and about the same for Calcium Gluconate).
1.5 grams with Calcium Carbonate, but that neutralizes stomach acid (it can be useful as a buffer to neutralize any acidic components of a supplement).

No matter what form was chosen, or even a mix of forms, that seems like it might be possible in a roughly 5 gram chewable. The only real harm in a larger/heavier chewable is distribution cost (increased shipping).

I had some calcium fruit chews once- they were largely glucose, but they were pretty good (couldn't detect the calcium in them by taste).


What do you think about Magnesium and vitamin K? Some sources suggest they help with calcium absorption and use.

Vitamin D, vitamin C, vitamin E, vitamin K, magnesium and boron assist in absorbing calcium.

Regarding vitamin K,

Vegans who eat leafy green vegetables with some added oil on a daily basis should receive more than adequate vitamin K. Even those who do not might obtain enough vitamin K from intestinal bacteria, unless they have had a significant course of antibiotics. Making sure you get plenty of vitamin K through leafy green vegetables is the best plan.

Vitamin K is really easy to get.

The Dietary Reference Intake for vitamin K is 120 µg for men and 90 µg for women.

There are 2 vitamin K:
- Phylloquinone (K1) - found primarily in plant foods; most prevalent in green leafy vegetables.
- Menaquinone (K2) - found in animal tissues and produced by bacteria. The only vegan food high in menaquinone is natto (998 µg per 100 g portion)
BUT

Because menaquinone is not found in plant foods, some laypeople have suggested you need to eat animal products in order to have adequate vitamin K status. The scientific consensus has been that either of the two types of vitamin K are adequate, especially regarding vitamin K's blood clotting activity.

Therefore someone can easily get enough vitamin K just by eating green leafy vegetables.
That said,

While no known toxicity is associated with vitamin K, high doses may cause numbness or tingling in the extremities.

http://www.eatingwell.com/nutrition_hea ... /vitamin_k

Tolerable Upper Intake Level (UL)
Not determinable due to lack of data on adverse effects and concern about inability to handle excess amounts. Source should be from food only to prevent high levels of intake.

You can also check it here http://iom.edu/Activities/Nutrition/Sum ... ements.pdf
They say 'ND' for tolerable upper level intakes of K.
I think that if put in a multivitamin, it should atleast be lower then the daily recommended dose (<90 mcg).

Regarding magnesium,

Age Male Female Pregnancy Lactation
Birth to 6 months 30 mg* 30 mg*
7–12 months 75 mg* 75 mg*
1–3 years 80 mg 80 mg
4–8 years 130 mg 130 mg
9–13 years 240 mg 240 mg
14–18 years 410 mg 360 mg 400 mg 360 mg
19–30 years 400 mg 310 mg 350 mg 310 mg
31–50 years 420 mg 320 mg 360 mg 320 mg
51+ years 420 mg 320 mg

I think 200 mg would be enough (torelable upper level intake for 9+ years old is 350 mg). The problem is that there's a high diversity depending on age and sex.

Choline bitatrate may be a better supplement choice since it's a solid salt, but it seems like intake is generally recommended to be limited to 500mg due to stomach issues at larger amounts.

The recommended dosage for Choline Bitartrate is 1 to 2 grams per day. New users are instructed to begin with a dose in the 500 mg range and increase as you become used to taking it and develop a tolerance level.

http://nootropicnexus.com/products/choline-bitartrate

Unfortunately, that form is only about 40% Choline, the rest being tartaric acid.

There are two types of side effects when it comes to choline bitartrate powder: those associated with the bitartrate form in particular and those tied to any sort of choline. Choline bitartrate’s side effects are less dangerous than they are inconvenient. It can cause upset stomachs, and at higher doses can also produce a strong, odd body odor [10].

Choline in higher doses is a bad choice because, great as acetylcholine is, the brain can easily overload on it. Too-high acetylcholine levels will manifest as headaches, difficulty focusing, and even depression. To that effect, make sure you’re taking the right amount of choline bitartrate: 500 mg for an all-around supplement, or a boosted 1,500 - 2000 mg if you’re looking to specifically target acetylcholine production.

http://nootropicnexus.com/blogs/news/11 ... s-and-more

Although, I don't know how reliable that is, since the writer of that article is painfully ignorant of basic chemistry ("Choline bitartrate is a simple form of choline made by combining choline with the salt bitartrate." Yeah...)


What do you think of the different Choline forms?

This article discusses them a little
http://www.smarternootropics.com/2013/0 ... ent-forms/

A mix might make sense to get the most affordable, highest dosage density without side effects.



That, along with increased B-12 absorption, that might be a good reason to formulate the quantities to recommend up to three a day (like after meals- and if it functions as a sort of mint, that would make sense).

thebestofenergy wrote: Vitamin D, vitamin C, vitamin E, vitamin K, magnesium and boron assist in absorbing calcium.

Thanks.

Vitamin D should be covered.
Vitamin C should be no problem. How much is useful, do you think?
It's not particularly dangerous (although it is sour, and the acidity might contribute to tooth decay- but it could be added as calcium ascorbate to avoid that)

Vitamin E, maybe... I think there's actually vitamin E in the Vitamin D liquid formulations as a lipid soluble preservative. I'm not sure how much.
It's generally pretty safe at levels even well above RDI.

Hypervitaminosis E is a state of vitamin E toxicity. Because vitamin E can act as an anticoagulant and may increase the risk of bleeding problems, many agencies have set a tolerable upper intake levels (UL) for vitamin E at 1,000 mg (1,500 IU) per day.[1]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypervitaminosis_E

A gram is just an insanely large amount.
So, I think the question would be: How much is actually useful for calcium absorption?

Boron, that's strange. Toxicity is pretty low for that too (up to 500 mg a day seems to be safe), so probably wouldn't really hurt to have some in. Is there any consensus on how much with respect to calcium is helpful?

thebestofenergy wrote:Regarding vitamin K, [...]
They say 'ND' for tolerable upper level intakes of K.
I think that if put in a multivitamin, it should atleast be lower then the daily recommended dose (<90 mcg).

Sound good.

thebestofenergy wrote: Regarding magnesium,

Age Male Female Pregnancy Lactation
Birth to 6 months 30 mg* 30 mg*
7–12 months 75 mg* 75 mg*
1–3 years 80 mg 80 mg
4–8 years 130 mg 130 mg
9–13 years 240 mg 240 mg
14–18 years 410 mg 360 mg 400 mg 360 mg
19–30 years 400 mg 310 mg 350 mg 310 mg
31–50 years 420 mg 320 mg 360 mg 320 mg
51+ years 420 mg 320 mg

I think 200 mg would be enough (torelable upper level intake for 9+ years old is 350 mg). The problem is that there's a high diversity depending on age and sex.

200 mg sounds OK. Kind of heavy, though.
Do you think less would be OK, or would that strongly impact the ability of the body to absorb the calcium?

Do you think there are any good studies on optimal calcium:magnesium ratios?

Oh, the vitamin K stuff reminds me of something else potentially useful:

Probiotics / prebiotics

If the chew is dry enough (like, by avoiding hydrophilic choline chloride), it should be possible to keep probiotic endospores inert in the mix.

It's not terribly clear how many ever actually make it through the acidic stomach conditions, but if any do, it could be useful for people who need a repopulation of intestinal flora.


It's also possible certain enzymes could be useful:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phytase

Particularly for people eating a lot of whole grains, a little Phytase could go a long way to liberating a lot more nutrition in the food itself which would otherwise be indigestible.

This would only be useful if it were taken with or right after meals, like a mint.

But as far as effectiveness per weight, phytase could drastically increase the nutritional value of some vegan meals (particularly those which are raw, or have been prepared hastily without soaking/sprouting).