Paris exemption

[brimstoneSalad]

So your telling me when you hear the word flexi-vegan you do not associate such a thing with vegan?

It just means they eat vegan most of the time, but they aren't strict.
It could be compared to lapsed-catholic.

Vegan is a term with social currency, and also utility- people use this as a way of telling others how they generally want to eat, and not always how they do eat in practice.

A flexi-vegan is not a strict-vegan, which is, an actual vegan. "Flexi" as a term prevents judgement of hypocrisy, and helps people understand that real/strict vegans do not do this thing.

This re opens the problem of "see even vegans eat meat and animal products".

No, this solves the problem of somebody having weak will power, or not being willing to suffer certain inconveniences, and reverting back to being a complete meat eater because they couldn't or weren't willing to uphold perfect standards.

Most vegans, without calling themselves flexi-vegan, do eat animal products now and then simply because of the world they live in; I've seen them do it. People who feel this is inconsistent are more likely to abandon veganism all together.

Veganism and vegetarianism has an extremely high rate of recidivism (probably higher than 3/4), which is why our numbers are not growing. You may see people 'converting', but most of them end up going back to eating meat (including militant vegans, and animal rights activists). There are more people who "used to be vegetarian" than are vegetarian, and that probably applies even more so to veganism.

The problem with the lesser of two evils is that it ignores the 3rd option, no (or at least very little) evil.

The problem with the third option is that it ignores the 4th option: unicorn magic.

Are we or are we not trying to be realistic here?

Do you use the Paris exception? Or are you playing devils advocate? Or do you advocate Paris exception to those who think veganism is too strict?

Veganism is a failing movement. The only reason it's gaining in popularity is because people are treating it more flexibly, and making it easier to achieve.

The more people who eat less meat there are, and the more vegan options available, the more likely strict veganism will become socially sustainable in the future.

3/4 vegans on this forum will not be vegan any more in five years.

If they became flexi-vegan instead of reverting to full fledged meat eating, that at least would be a little better, and eases their transition back to veganism (labels mean quite a bit, and as soon as you label yourself a meat-eater, you're not likely to return).

I'm not a flexi-vegan, but I don't like to criticize people who are. I appreciate people who make an effort to do better than the status quo.

[bobo0100]

I accept your proposition that flexi-vegan is far better of than meat eaters. However if a vegan does go to a fancy food court, and there are vegan/vegetarian options, those options should be considered with far more weight than a non veg option.

why?
Business logic.

If there is higher demand for a product, or a type of product they will make more of that product in order to match demand. If there is not enough demand for a product they will not make that product. Also invitation happens in product types likely to increase demand. So a higher vegan vs non vegan percentage of vegans in fancy food courts increases the amount of food courts likely to be vegan or have more vegan meals.

[Volenta]

Veganism and vegetarianism has an extremely high rate of recidivism (probably higher than 3/4), which is why our numbers are not growing. You may see people 'converting', but most of them end up going back to eating meat (including militant vegans, and animal rights activists). There are more people who "used to be vegetarian" than are vegetarian, and that probably applies even more so to veganism.

Although I know/hear about people that went vegetarian for a month or so because of a bad story they heard, the meat scandals or animal illnesses, I find it still pretty shocking to hear that more than 3/4—especially including the more serious vegans—turn back to eating meat. These one month-vegetarians are probably the people that in particular caused the statistics to turn out that way (probably together with health-reason ones). So I hope it's meanly ignorance and forgetfulness and not the views on the matter that have changed, because educating and being an example might still help in that case.

But the serious vegans that turn to carnism... I really get it when people become a flexible vegan, because of all the social issues vegans have to deal with. But I mean, when buying food for yourself... You have to go to the supermarket anyway, it isn't much harder to buy vegan food than animal-based food—especially when you know all the in and outs of the products and recipes. Why would you suddenly stop caring after knowing all the facts so well?

***

Edit:
I myself am not really sure how I want to handle things in social environments. I don't want to be the center of the attention and give an annoying impression because I turn down the food someone made or by asking someone to make something specifically for me. But then again, I also don't feel comfortable eating any animal products. Paris exemption or flexible vegan in it's full meaning isn't going to be it for me. So I was thinking about allowing only very small amounts of animal products, but when rationalizing it, I even shouldn't do that; I wouldn't do it with meat, and since their can't be made a morally coherent distinction between meat and other animal products, it's a no go. Another option would be to bring along my own food (with consultation) to show how nice vegan food can be.

[Kanade]

Rather than buying into the vegetarian stuff in restaurants we should motivate them to bring more vegan products to avoid this.

I don't think inconvenience is a justified reason to eat vegetarian, if a restaurant does not have any vegan options i'm leaving plain and simple.

[thebestofenergy]

I myself am not really sure how I want to handle things in social environments. I don't want to be the center of the attention and give an annoying impression because I turn down the food someone made or by asking someone to make something specifically for me. But then again, I also don't feel comfortable eating any animal products. Paris exemption or flexible vegan in it's full meaning isn't going to be it for me. So I was thinking about allowing only very small amounts of animal products, but when rationalizing it, I even shouldn't do that; I wouldn't do it with meat, and since their can't be made a morally coherent distinction between meat and other animal products, it's a no go. Another option would be to bring along my own food (with consultation) to show how nice vegan food can be.

I usually don't care that much what other people think of my choice. Evolution and neuroscience explain really well why we have social pressure when near other people. When we were still primitive, the way the society around you view you was fudamental to your survival and to your life in general; if your tribe was to abbandon you, your life would be in serious danger. The neurons that fired in those occasions are the same that fire when your life is in danger, or when you're embarassed talking to a girl/boy you like, or when your views are not accepted with a group of friends.
But your life is not anymore in danger in these situations, and the fact that you're different than them won't ruin your life; the fear to act different from the people you're with, just because they might have a bad opinion on you, it's irrational. Once you understand that, you start caring less (or at least that's the case with me).
You can always tell them you're vegan before you go to a party/dinner with friends, that way there won't be any problem. If you feel uncomfortable eating animal products, tell them so; they should understand. If you want to be sure, you can always bring your own food or eat beforehand.
By the way, I see your profile now says vegan Congratulations!

[Volenta]

I usually don't care that much what other people think of my choice. Evolution and neuroscience explain really well why we have social pressure when near other people. When we were still primitive, the way the society around you view you was fudamental to your survival and to your life in general; if your tribe was to abbandon you, your life would be in serious danger. The neurons that fired in those occasions are the same that fire when your life is in danger, or when you're embarassed talking to a girl/boy you like, or when your views are not accepted with a group of friends.
But your life is not anymore in danger in these situations, and the fact that you're different than them won't ruin your life; the fear to act different from the people you're with, just because they might have a bad opinion on you, it's irrational. Once you understand that, you start caring less (or at least that's the case with me).

Of course I recognize this facts intellectually, but I'm still not in control of it because of it. It's great to hear that it does help you though. What I like to do when taking a controversial position (which I do pretty often, when it's the most rational position to hold), is education yourself as much as possible. That way you can speak confidently about it and you are always prepared to give counterarguments.

You can always tell them you're vegan before you go to a party/dinner with friends, that way there won't be any problem. If you feel uncomfortable eating animal products, tell them so; they should understand. If you want to be sure, you can always bring your own food or eat beforehand.

That's probably how I'm going to do it, yes.

By the way, I see your profile now says vegan Congratulations!

Thanks I've gone through all my products and haven't bought any non-vegan product for some time now. I'm pretty much out of products that contain animal products (except for leather things). Thought it was the right moment to call myself a vegan.

[brimstoneSalad]

Way to go Volenta!

Bringing your own stuff -- and bringing enough to share -- is usually the best option, because then you can be sure to have something to eat, and introduce people to some good vegan food.

If I can't bring something, I just eat as much as possible before hand, and then wait until I get home. The host won't be too concerned if you can assure him/her that you ate plenty beforehand.

[brimstoneSalad]

Although I know/hear about people that went vegetarian for a month or so because of a bad story they heard, the meat scandals or animal illnesses, I find it still pretty shocking to hear that more than 3/4—especially including the more serious vegans—turn back to eating meat. These one month-vegetarians are probably the people that in particular caused the statistics to turn out that way (probably together with health-reason ones). So I hope it's meanly ignorance and forgetfulness and not the views on the matter that have changed, because educating and being an example might still help in that case.

I'm afraid that's not the case. Many were vegan for reasons of morality, animal rights, etc.
Recidivism is high across the board.

Many of them are moonbats, who went from vegan to primal or some nonsense like that. A good example is the blogger Kristen Suzanne.

Others just stopped caring, or began to believe meat was ethical for reasons of cognitive dissonance (for example, marrying an omnivore partner: "I love my SO and my SO eats meat, therefore eating meat isn't wrong").

For some people, life gives them a pile of shit at some point, and because life sucks for them, they feel entitled to reward themselves with animal products ("My life sucks, so it's OK for me to make animals miserable too, I deserve this comfort food, I need this now.").

Most vegans I have ever known have stopped being vegan at some point, and it wasn't just that they had bad diets (although some of them did- raw foodists and other obsessive diets being just as much an example of that as the potato chip and side salad diet), a large part of it is often psychological.

[thebestofenergy]

Most vegans I have ever known have stopped being vegan at some point, and it wasn't just that they had bad diets (although some of them did- raw foodists and other obsessive diets being just as much an example of that as the potato chip and side salad diet), a large part of it is often psychological.

If it's true that most vegans go back to an omnivore diet, then it seems quite hopeless
How could it happen that most people go vegan, and remain so?

[TheVeganAtheist]

Thanks I've gone through all my products and haven't bought any non-vegan product for some time now. I'm pretty much out of products that contain animal products (except for leather things). Thought it was the right moment to call myself a vegan.

Awesome! Happy to hear that you have made the change.