Non-Vegans: Earthlings Link Free Online

[EquALLity]

I agree. It makes the assumption that when someone sees what's going on they will stop their immoral behavior, history has never shown this to be the case, however.

I did.

[miniboes]

I agree. It makes the assumption that when someone sees what's going on they will stop their immoral behavior, history has never shown this to be the case, however.

I did.

Sorry, I meant to add "for a significant portion of the population"

[bobo0100]

What are you talking about? Blackfish was made in 2013. It's not as graphic, but it's the same idea. It shows terrible animal abuse.
The Cove was made in 2009 and is graphic.
But why does it even matter how old the movie is? Who cares? I don't understand.

point taken

If I didn't watch Meet Your Meat, I wouldn't have gone vegan.
I posted Earthlings instead because it is the same kind of movie with more information.

I'm sure the documentary does help in growing/spreading the vegan movement. The question than becomes how does it do so? I am willing to state that is uses graphic images to manipulate the viewer emotions. It does not ask a signal ethics question nor discuss how we are best to answer that question.

Why would we NOT use it when it helps the movement?
Also, using a documentary to help a movement isn't necessarily relying on the documentary.

Because it makes vegans come off as emotional rather than intellectual causing harm to the movement overall.

The entire film is about how animals are mistreated. It shows graphic footage of animals being treated immorally, and there is a narrator talking about it. How is that not speaking of morality?

I think me and you use the word morality in a different sense. When I use the term I am addressing the thought process that are used in order to come to moral conclusions. The film does not do this.

What? You haven't even watched it?
What makes you think it doesn't speak of morality?

You are ether mistaken or quote mining. When I said "Altho I have not seen the movie" i was referring to 'the 2013 movie "speciesism"' as appears clear as you continue to read the sentence sentence.

[Soycrates]

I have to disagree with the idea that Earthlings is a purely emotionally motivated documentary. The narration talks clearly about the reasoning process behind speciesism and the stages people go through in combating their own ideology as they come closer to the truth of the matter.

Also, emotion is not anti-reason. While some people may let their emotions take over in lieu of reason ("I believe this just because I feel it to be true", "I have no proof but it makes me feel good", "I can't explain why I feel this way, but I'm right") emotion does not inherently prevent reason from leading a discussion. An emotionless discussion is rather an unreasonable one because it chooses to ignore how vital human emotion is to our existence and socialization.

[bobo0100]

I have to disagree with the idea that Earthlings is a purely emotionally motivated documentary. The narration talks clearly about the reasoning process behind speciesism and the stages people go through in combating their own ideology as they come closer to the truth of the matter.

My stance is not that the whole film is purely emotionally based, I'm just thinking about the bulk of the film. The section you are talking about is 10-15 min's of the film.

Also, emotion is not anti-reason. While some people may let their emotions take over in lieu of reason ("I believe this just because I feel it to be true", "I have no proof but it makes me feel good", "I can't explain why I feel this way, but I'm right") emotion does not inherently prevent reason from leading a discussion. An emotionless discussion is rather an unreasonable one because it chooses to ignore how vital human emotion is to our existence and socialization.

when addressing moral questions people tend to think in one of two way's, emotionally or logically. utilitarianism is an example of logical moral thinking. As opposed to the gory pictures shown by pro-lifers and earthlings.

[Soycrates]

when addressing moral questions people tend to think in one of two way's, emotionally or logically. utilitarianism is an example of logical moral thinking. As opposed to the gory pictures shown by pro-lifers and earthlings.

You can feel an emotional intuition to maximizing pleasure and minimizing pain. You might choose utilitarianism purely because it makes you feel better and not because you think it is a just and fair form of ethical reasoning.

Emotion and logic are not so easily separable. Our emotions motivate us to pursue the study and discussion that will lead us to more rational-decision making.

If you can't look at a gory picture and still think critically, it's not your emotion taking over, it's just your lack of strong reasoning skills.

[EquALLity]

Sorry, I meant to add "for a significant portion of the population"

What makes you think that?
I know a vegetarian in real life who made the change because she learned how the animals in slaughterhouses and on factory farms were treated.
I'm also apart of this vegan group on Facebook, and awhile back there was a poll about what made the people there go vegan. "Earthlings" was it's own option, and lot's of people voted for it.

I didn't say these things before because they might be considered just anecdotes.
I have an idea, though. I can make a new poll on the Vegan Forum about why the people there went vegan.
The only reliable information I can present now is that JaclynGlenn went vegetarian because she watched Meet Your Meat and Earthlings. Here is her video about that: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p5_jXfjwOcY
And me going vegan, of course.
So, I'll go make that poll now.
Update- As soon as I figure out how.

You are ether mistaken or quote mining. When I said "Altho I have not seen the movie" i was referring to 'the 2013 movie "speciesism"' as appears clear as you continue to read the sentence sentence.

I don't think it becomes apparent. but whatever. I get how that can apply to both films, and I know what you meant now, so...

I'm sure the documentary does help in growing/spreading the vegan movement. The question than becomes how does it do so? I am willing to state that is uses graphic images to manipulate the viewer emotions. It does not ask a signal ethics question nor discuss how we are best to answer that question.

How does showing reality manipulate peoples' emotions? If anything the animal industries are manipulating people with their bullsh*t commercials like this (with refutation). https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1yYb7GCA5Ls
They take that everyone wants and hopes these animals to be treated well and then acts as if they actually are when they aren't.
Also what do you mean by an ethics question? The entire documentary is about how animals are treated unethically and that that is wrong.

Because it makes vegans come off as emotional rather than intellectual causing harm to the movement overall.

How? We are basing what we do off the real suffering that animals in these industries experience.

I think me and you use the word morality in a different sense. When I use the term I am addressing the thought process that are used in order to come to moral conclusions. The film does not do this.

Can you give me an example of an ethics question?

[Ceelos213]

Okay, I've seen this movie for the first time now and, as a meat eating atheist, I am ready to review it.

I want to state in advance that I have no good argument for my meat eating habit. Before watching the movie I already understood the wastefulness and ecological harm of meat production. I've even made the argument in conversation that world hunger would be easily eradicated by a simple shift from "feed" to "food" production. I have hunted before and consumed the products of those hunts. I keep pets: two recue dogs (both spayed and terribly spoiled). I've been to circuses, fairs, and zoos, but always with an uncomfortable sense of exploitative voyeurism that prevents any real enjoyment. The way I have justified the meat eating habit to myself is by embracing what I perceive to be an evolved predatory instinct in man. It was there on the hunts, and even though the killing act wasn't exactly pleasant, there was something primal and satisfying about it, and I had no problem doing my own dirty work to eat meat. I see people who eat meat but aren't willing to go about the trouble of slaughtering it themselves (or even recognize meat as animals in some cases) as total hypocrites.

All that being said, the film was powerful and, for the most part, well argued. Joaquin Phoenix's narration was somber but not overly emotional, as tends to be the case in some documentaries. It has been mentioned already here that the film is very graphic, but I feel it's necessary for its purpose. The brutality exhibited by the people in the slaughterhouses, illustrates the lack of humanity and empathy required for industrial meat production. Watching the killing process, it's undeniable that animals feel and suffer the same as we do, but the most disturbing part was the sick enjoyment shown by the people doing the killing.

I have one caveat to point out. The parts near the beginning, where animal cruelty is compared to slavery and the holocaust, were highly offensive (and I am not an easy person to offend). Even if you don't mean to, when you compare the struggle of animals to the struggle of a group people, you reflexively call those people animals and demean their struggle. The film made good points and strong arguments and would have been just as powerful without these comparisons. From a tactical standpoint alone it was a mistake as it serves only to alienate blacks and Jews (full disclosure: I am descended of Sephardic Jew).

The effect? I really have to consider giving up meat. I stopped smoking ten years ago for health reasons and I might have to do this for moral ones. In the very least buying meat has gotten a lot more difficult for me as I can't see mused eating any meat or dairy that is industrially produced. I have some lifestyle thinking to do and I'm going to have to discuss this with my wife, who is also not a vegetarian. I don't see myself giving up animal products completely but who knows? This morning (before watching the movie) I planned on making an omelette for breakfast, but I made a PB & J instead.

[miniboes]

Welcome to the forums, Ceelos! Consider making an introduction post?

The parts near the beginning, where animal cruelty is compared to slavery and the holocaust, were highly offensive (and I am not an easy person to offend).

I don't think this is necessarily a bad thing. To offend one is only wrong if it is not necessary, in this case it most definitely is. If you tell someone their behavior is wrong, they will be offended and there's little you can do about it. If you could go back in time and told a slave owner he was doing the wrong thing, he sure would be offended, that does not make the criticism wrong in any way.

Even if you don't mean to, when you compare the struggle of animals to the struggle of a group people, you reflexively call those people animals and demean their struggle.

Well, people are animals aren't they? I don't think it's demeaning their struggle at all, it is merely illustrating how terrible the struggle of the animals is.

The film made good points and strong arguments and would have been just as powerful without these comparisons. From a tactical standpoint alone it was a mistake as it serves only to alienate blacks and Jews (full disclosure: I am descended of Sephardic Jew).

For many people arguments can be hard to grasp without a strong comparison. Slavery, rape and the holocaust are probably the most solid comparisons we have to point out what is wrong with the meat, dairy and byproduct industries. Even if people understand the argument without these comparisons they are still useful to solidify your point, as I did above.

The effect? I really have to consider giving up meat. I stopped smoking ten years ago for health reasons and I might have to do this for moral ones. In the very least buying meat has gotten a lot more difficult for me as I can't see mused eating any meat or dairy that is industrially produced.

Great that you're considering this! I am convinced (to avoid the word believe) that meat, dairy and eggs can be as hazardous if not worse than smoking for your health. I can give you some solid sources if you want, but to summarize if you eliminate animal products from your diet you can eliminate the chance of a stroke/heart attack and the chance of getting diabetes, you can lose massive weight if you happen to be obese and you dramatically lower your chances of cancer and Alzheimer's. This was actually the initial reason I went vegetarian and shortly after vegan.

I have some lifestyle thinking to do and I'm going to have to discuss this with my wife, who is also not a vegetarian. I don't see myself giving up animal products completely but who knows? This morning (before watching the movie) I planned on making an omelette for breakfast, but I made a PB & J instead.

I fully understand it can be difficult. What specifically do you think is keeping you from skipping on animal products?

[Ceelos213]

Thanks for the welcome. I notice I wrote "mused" instead of "myself" (damn autocorrect). I guess the biggest issue I have with going vegan is I am not an animal equalist. While I believe animals are sentient beings deserving of respect, I do not put them on the same level of importance as people. Hence my personal aversion to comparisons with human struggles. I also don't find animals to be equal to each other.

Generally speaking (and this is a personal philosophy), the more like us they are, the more "rights" I'm willing to grant them. For example, I would never kill a mammalian predator since we are mammalian predators. Elephants are herbivores but still fall under this category since they are intelligent and socially advanced. The only exception to this is the same one that is also the case in nature, self defense, but I would do everything in my power to avoid having to kill, say, a cougar, if I ran into one on a hike.

As for farm and prey animals, I have no problem consuming them as long as they aren't unnecessarily tortured. On the hunts I've been on the objectives were: 1) instant death as a surprise, 2) stick to males (not as necessary for species subsistence and no chance of orphaning), and 3) waste nothing. My feelings on farming come from old stories my great grandmother told me about her father who was a sheep and goat herder. He cared for the animals greatly and only slaughtered those that were sick or when it was necessary for food. They hand milked the goats. She tended chickens cage-free for eggs.

I think that hunting and meat consumption satisfy a deeply ingrained evolutionary desire and people tend to differ on how much they are willing give in to it. You have, and I mean this earnestly, admirable self control and compassion. The people depicted in the movie are utter sociopaths. I lie somewhere inbetween. I can say one thing for sure: I will never consume another industrially produced animal product in my life. In my personal experiences hunting and farming, the animal is spared discomfort. If a product does not meet this standard I am not willing to consume it, and that pretty much rules out almost every single animal product found in a supermarket.

I have vegan friends and I spoke to one today about what he keeps in his fridge. He helped me make a shopping list for this weekend. Perhaps with time time and habit my need to satisfy the predatory instinct will fade away.