Post in response to Vegan Athiest vs MrRepzion

[brimstoneSalad]

We evolved from primates that were omnivores just as we are now. We developed higher cognitive process around 250kish years ago and with a more advance communication than grunts and points we were eating meat. So, from generation to generation it's not seen as bad or taboo and has helped sustain and grow the population.

Am I against veganism? No not at all I just am against people saying that they have the only moral way and others that don't follow it are immoral. That is basically the religious argument in a nutshell. I'm not sure if the vegan diet has had substantial studying done to affirm it's rhetoric. If it's truly healthier for you than one day it will be proven and more people will be educated and then decide to make that change if they want.

I took the time to respond to you.

[wfatheist]

We evolved from primates that were omnivores just as we are now. We developed higher cognitive process around 250kish years ago and with a more advance communication than grunts and points we were eating meat. So, from generation to generation it's not seen as bad or taboo and has helped sustain and grow the population.

Am I against veganism? No not at all I just am against people saying that they have the only moral way and others that don't follow it are immoral. That is basically the religious argument in a nutshell. I'm not sure if the vegan diet has had substantial studying done to affirm it's rhetoric. If it's truly healthier for you than one day it will be proven and more people will be educated and then decide to make that change if they want.

I took the time to respond to you.

I'm not sure I understand? You did and I actually thanked you in the post that was too long! I am tired having worked over night and not been able to sleep so I might be missing crucial context.

[miniboes]

We evolved from primates that were omnivores just as we are now. We developed higher cognitive process around 250kish years ago and with a more advance communication than grunts and points we were eating meat. So, from generation to generation it's not seen as bad or taboo and has helped sustain and grow the population.

Well, although we were omnivores we ate mostly plants, and if we ate meat it was probably a corpse left by a more sophisticated predator. Without tools humans kinda suck at hunting, to test it you could try walking into a forest with nothing but underwear and see if you can catch an animal.

See also: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BMOjVYgYaG8

Although I agree there's an evolutionary benefit to being able to digest meat it, that does not make it healthy. Countless studies have proven that the consumption of animal products leads to cancer, heart disease (which, by the way, is completely eliminated by a good vegan diet), Alzheimer and diabetes. No exhaustive list, by the way.

Meat was more of a way to stay alive in times where plants are scarce, it does not cause a longer or healthier life when compared to a vegan diet.
The notion that we would need dairy or eggs (I have not heard you make this argument, but anyhow) is absurd, just imagine walking into a herd of Aurochs, pushing aside a calf and starting to pull at the Auroch's udders. You won't survive that shit.

Eggs are hen menstruation, so yeah, gross. They also have an incredible amount of cholesterol, such that one egg seems to shorten one's life as much as 25,000 sigarettes.

Am I against veganism? No not at all I just am against people saying that they have the only moral way and others that don't follow it are immoral. That is basically the religious argument in a nutshell. I'm not sure if the vegan diet has had substantial studying done to affirm it's rhetoric. If it's truly healthier for you than one day it will be proven and more people will be educated and then decide to make that change if they want.

The difference is, the religious people do not have a good argument to support their view. If you don't believe that the vegan diet is healthy, the documentary "Forks Over Knives" is on Netflix. You can also look up Neal Barnard, Michael Greger, T Colin Campbell or Caldwell Esselstyn. The studies are on our side man. It is already proven, but the meat and dairy lobbyists are holding it back like their life depends on it, and well, their salaries do.

The notion that it is wrong to tell others their behavior is immoral is quite weird, would you be against telling slave owners a while back that owning slaves is wrong? Would you be against telling Neo-Nazis that harassing and threatening Jews is not the way to go?

[brimstoneSalad]

I'm not sure I understand? You did and I actually thanked you in the post that was too long! I am tired having worked over night and not been able to sleep so I might be missing crucial context.

You mean in the post that doesn't exist?

I made a response post that was really long but started to become a ramble so I didn't post it but in essence it was this:

As far as I could tell, you ignored me completely and only replied to miniboes.

Don't worry, I do weird things when I'm tired too, we all do.

[wfatheist]

I don't make any arguments pro dairy or eggs. I am an adult and I don't have to drink milk and no one can make me anymore! (residual angst at mothers forcing children to drink milk) I like ice cream though so go figure. I love cheese so there is a problem and eggs are meh at best.

[wfatheist]

I'm not sure I understand? You did and I actually thanked you in the post that was too long! I am tired having worked over night and not been able to sleep so I might be missing crucial context.

You mean in the post that doesn't exist?

Have faith! It exists but only in my head now! You didn't see it but it's there! you can't read it but it was written!

[miniboes]

I don't make any arguments pro dairy or eggs. I am an adult and I don't have to drink milk and no one can make me anymore! (residual angst at mothers forcing children to drink milk) I like ice cream though so go figure. I love cheese so there is a problem and eggs are meh at best.

Ok, that makes you better than most omnivores! I really wonder what's stopping you from becoming a vegan though, as you seem quite reasonable. Brimsone and other people on this forum can help you out very well in making a gradual change towards better eating habits.

[wfatheist]

I don't make any arguments pro dairy or eggs. I am an adult and I don't have to drink milk and no one can make me anymore! (residual angst at mothers forcing children to drink milk) I like ice cream though so go figure. I love cheese so there is a problem and eggs are meh at best.

Ok, that makes you better than most omnivores! I really wonder what's stopping you from becoming a vegan though, as you seem quite reasonable. Brimsone and other people on this forum can help you out very well in making a gradual change towards better eating habits.

The last time I tried to go vegan I was getting irrationally angry at everything. My roommate said good morning about the 5th day into my diet and I threw the first readily available object at him and freaked out. Ate one steak and I was back to being fat and happy.

[miniboes]

The last time I tried to go vegan I was getting irrationally angry at everything. My roommate said good morning about the 5th day into my diet and I threw the first readily available object at him and freaked out. Ate one steak and I was back to being fat and happy.

The fats in meat and cheese are like heroin, you body will have trouble letting go of its addiction. A more gradual shift will probably not have these effects.

[brimstoneSalad]

We evolved from primates that were omnivores just as we are now. We developed higher cognitive process around 250kish years ago and with a more advance communication than grunts and points we were eating meat. So, from generation to generation it's not seen as bad or taboo and has helped sustain and grow the population.

We owe a great debt to those unfortunate animals killed in our evolution. We may never have made it through long winters without them to get to this point.
We also may have never made it here if the strongest men didn't kill the weaker men, take the women as slaves, and rape them to bear the next generation.

Rising from our natural origins, we have a sordid and brutal past. But that doesn't have to be our future. We are now capable of thinking and living beyond that.

Am I against veganism? No not at all I just am against people saying that they have the only moral way and others that don't follow it are immoral.

Hardly anybody is saying that.

Does doing something immoral make you an immoral person? We all do bad things, sometimes things we know we shouldn't. The point is to try to do better, and to look at the balance of actions, good and bad, in our lives.

Likewise, vegans in general don't even say that it's wrong for everybody to eat meat. People in developing countries don't always have a choice in the matter; they don't have access to the knowledge, nutritious agricultural products, and medicine we do.

Choice is a luxury of the first world; the ability to consider the effects of our actions upon others.

In the context of that choice, it is a morally wrong one to choose to eat meat.

That is basically the religious argument in a nutshell.

No, that's pretty much the opposite of the religious argument.

The religious argument is "It's wrong because god says so, and that's absolute!"

This is sensitive to context and consequence, and doesn't appeal to authority but to the negative or positive effects on other beings.

Like miniboes said, the differences in the arguments are night and day.

In order to reject the moral argument of veganism for modern first world people, you'd have to reject the moral arguments for anything and everything, and become a nihilist.

"Rape? Well, I personally disagree with it, but it's not for me to say what's right or wrong for you. Sure mr. rapist, you're a good person! Go ahead and do whatever you think is right!"

I don't think that's something you'd agree with, but it's something you'd have to agree with in order to absolutely reject all moral arguments- which is just as dogmatic as any religion (just a dogmatic rejection rather than a dogmatic acceptance).

In order to avoid dogma, you have to adopt a moral framework that is sensitive to evidence and reason. That's something most (though not all) vegans do. It's something almost no religious people are willing to do.

I'm not sure if the vegan diet has had substantial studying done to affirm it's rhetoric. If it's truly healthier for you than one day it will be proven and more people will be educated and then decide to make that change if they want.

There are misconceptions out there, but in the scientific consensus on nutrition, there's not much argument on the subject anymore.

The bottom line is that today we can MAKE the substances found in meat. And we can do so selectively, to produce and consume only the good ones as supplements if they are found to be useful.
You can't exactly remove the bad things from meat.

So, a plant based diet has a fundamental advantage, in that it needs not miss any of the positive qualities of animal products, but can avoid all of the negative ones.

The problem is that we have people going around with conspiracy theories and pushing pseudoscience and fads like the Atkins diet (fine for cats who have metabolisms optimized for protein, not suitable for humans). These things catch on despite evidence- just as religion is resistant to evidence.

Nutrition is a complicated subject, like evolution, like Physics. It's easier for people to buy into nonsense rhetoric that lets them guiltlessly eat unhealthy and harmful things than to actually understand the science, just as it's easier for people to appeal to "god did it" than understand our natural history.