Anarchism on YouTube is Turning against Veganism

[brimstoneSalad]

So, you think articles like this are complete nonsense? Why?

You lost me, I thought you accepted a link between dairy and CVD and just ascribed it to calcium.

But no, I would not look to "dairynutrition.ca" as a good source.
Mechanistic data is pretty clear and it takes a lot to contradict that.

When it comes to actual diets, you have to look at what foods are replacing or what they're replaced by. It's less valuable information in telling us in absolute terms what something is doing.

[teo123]

So, you think articles like this are complete nonsense? Why?

You lost me, I thought you accepted a link between dairy and CVD and just ascribed it to calcium.

But no, I would not look to "dairynutrition.ca" as a good source.
Mechanistic data is pretty clear and it takes a lot to contradict that.

When it comes to actual diets, you have to look at what foods are replacing or what they're replaced by. It's less valuable information in telling us in absolute terms what something is doing.

What does "mechanicistic" mean? As far as I can see, a lot of evidence points to the direction that high-fat milk results in lower or the same rates of heart-disease as low-fat milk. That's precisely what you'd expect if the limiting factor for heart disease were calcium in milk, rather than fat.

[brimstoneSalad]

Mechanistic, having to do with the mechanism by which it works.
There's more evidence of the link between saturated fat and cholesterol and from that atherosclerosis than there is behind a calcium mechanism.

As far as I can see, a lot of evidence points to the direction that high-fat milk results in lower or the same rates of heart-disease as low-fat milk.

You would need to determine what else people are eating. If you're eating high fat milk you're probably eating less fat from elsewhere. Your "fat quota" is being met and may make you less likely to eat something like bacon or fatty meat.

Also, considering replacement, think about cholesterol:
Milk contains about 3mg cholesterol per gram of fat. Meat has closer to 6mg cholesterol per gram of fat.

The point is there are a lot of potential differences.

[teo123]

Mechanistic, having to do with the mechanism by which it works.
There's more evidence of the link between saturated fat and cholesterol and from that atherosclerosis than there is behind a calcium mechanism.

As far as I can see, a lot of evidence points to the direction that high-fat milk results in lower or the same rates of heart-disease as low-fat milk.

You would need to determine what else people are eating. If you're eating high fat milk you're probably eating less fat from elsewhere. Your "fat quota" is being met and may make you less likely to eat something like bacon or fatty meat.

Also, considering replacement, think about cholesterol:
Milk contains about 3mg cholesterol per gram of fat. Meat has closer to 6mg cholesterol per gram of fat.

The point is there are a lot of potential differences.

Well, I've linked you to a web-page with a lot of studies about the issue.
If calcium doesn't cause heart disease, then Vitamin D and Vitamin K shouldn't help against heart disease either, and there is a lot of evidence they do, right?

[brimstoneSalad]

Well, I've linked you to a web-page with a lot of studies about the issue.

Not that suggest calcium causes heart disease.

We'd need mechanistic studies on the issue, epidemeological studies look only at correlations -- and poorly controlled ones. Epidemiology can only reliably find very radical cause-effect relationships.

If calcium doesn't cause heart disease, then Vitamin D and Vitamin K shouldn't help against heart disease either, and there is a lot of evidence they do, right?

First of all, vitamin D does a LOT of things, so even if true that would be silly.
That said, I don't think there's strong evidence that vitamin D does anything for heart disease. Vitamin D actually promotes calcium absorption from the intestines following from which it would otherwise eventually be excreted in feces.
You would expect vitamin D to make matters worse, not better, if calcium were the main factor.

A vitamin K deficiency may promote calcification, but that's a very high amount of calcium in the blood (not normal function) because the bones are unable to bind the calcium. Additional supplementation beyond merely correcting deficiency hasn't been shown to be useful AFAIK.

And in either case, obstructive plaques can still form with very low levels of circulating calcium: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5967134/

My point is that our bodies always contain a circulating pool of calcium. Is calcium required for heart disease? Possibly, but if so even very small amounts seem to be adequate. Calcium is also required to be alive, though. Limiting calcium to the point that plaques can't build up *may* be possible in a lab model, but it wouldn't possible in vivo because such low levels of calcium would be fatal.

Not having calcium in your body isn't really an option.
The point is that there's no reason to believe consuming less calcium is beneficial to that since it's apparent that while the extremely high levels that result from vitamin K deficiency may potentially speed up calcification a little, low levels don't prevent obstructions and it may be that little to no calcification is required. The principle GLUE that's blocking arteries is cholesterol based. It's possible that extraordinarily high levels of calcium in those with vitamin K deficiency *may* exacerbate the issue, but the role of calcium in heart disease is far from clear and there's no indication that it's a limiting factor.

Regardless of calcium levels, plaques can not form without cholesterol. The same can not be said in reverse.

[teo123]

Anyway, what do you think about this video I've made?
https://youtu.be/Lg-IBf5vtgM

[brimstoneSalad]

Anyway, what do you think about this video I've made?
https://youtu.be/Lg-IBf5vtgM

Can't watch it right now, can you tell us what it's about or post a summary or text version?

[teo123]

Anyway, what do you think about this video I've made?
https://youtu.be/Lg-IBf5vtgM

Can't watch it right now, can you tell us what it's about or post a summary or text version?

Well, it's a response video to the video I've linked to in the opening post.

[teo123]

Anyway, @Red and @EquALLity[/mention, I'd be interested im what you think about the video I've made about Nina Teicholz?

[Red]

Anyway, Red and EquALLity I'd be interested im what you think about the video I've made about Nina Teicholz?

I shall watch that video when it's convienent for me but it is worth noting that I went to a debate to watch her a few months ago (and I have posted about it here). It's on ReasonTV's YouTube channel:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1qDYl4zHmAg

Overall from what I've seen she's a bitch who is likely responsible for more unhealthiness in American diets and I agree she is not to be trusted, and who is probably just trying to sensationalize for money at the cost of journalistic integrity.