Philosophical Vegan Forum

Red wrote:There literally can't be because it doesn't exist. How are you unable to grasp this?

Even if linguistics did argue against the existence of Croatia (which it doesn't), linguistics is a soft science. And you can use soft science arguments against it. Like, if Croatia doesn't exist, at least thousands of people would need to be in a conspiracy, and such a conspiracy is very unlikely.

Red wrote:Why should I trust you on this?

And you don't have to. You can buy a plane ticket to Croatia without many problems. This is not North Korea.

Red wrote:Doesn't matter, there are possible definitions for it and that's all that matters.

I don't understand what you mean.

Red wrote:Given how absurd your arguments are here, I'm pretty sure I know far more about the topic than you do.

Your arguments are, as far as I understand you, those two:
1. The name "Croatia" is of unclear etymology, therefore it's probably made up.
Sorry, that's an absurd argument: the words "they" and "are" are of unclear etymology, yet they are obviously part of the English language. If a toponym appears only once in all historical sources and it's of an unclear etymology and it's in a source otherwise full of errors (such as the supposed river name Ira in the Ravenna Cosmography), then the unclear etymology can be used as an argument against assuming it's a real place. Most scholars assume Bustricia in Ravenna Cosmography is, unlike Ira, an actual river name, because such a name would actually make sense etymologically.
2. Most of the people in the USA don't know Croatia is a country.
That's also a pretty absurd argument. Most of the people in Europe probably don't know Wyoming is a US state, that doesn't suggest it doesn't exist. Hell, most of the people in Europe don't know there is a state named Washington in the west of the US, they have only heard of the city with that name in the east of the US.

Red wrote:No one really talks about it since it's pretty obvious. It's kinda like why an evolutionary biologist wouldn't bother debating a creationist; It's just a waste of time.

Evolutionary biologist do have responses to creationists' arguments, it's just that creationists are (willfully) ignorant of them. No scholar, as far as I know, has suggested Tanais Tablets are fake. In fact, quite a few prominent scholars have written about them implying they are real.

Red wrote:Putanec was a well known con-artist who tried to prove the existence of Croatia.

To be honest, I am not too aware of his work. What did he write so outrageous?

Red wrote:That's your source? Some shitty obscure forum thread?

Well, it obviously depends on the state. Some USA states have good education, some don't.

Red wrote:Where is 'Croatia' supposed to be on a Map anyway?

Look it up on Google Maps or something like that.

Red wrote:It was made in 1993, 3 years after Croatia supposedly had it's independence recognized by the USA.

If I am not mistaken, China and Russia didn't recognize Croatia until late 1990s, so maybe those who made that game didn't want to have trouble printing the materials in China.

Red wrote:Yeah, as far as you understand it.

So, @brimstoneSalad and @Jebus, what do you think about the supposed IQ differences between countries? As far as I understand that, most psychologists dismiss that as racist pseudoscience.

Red wrote:It's pretty common in the US and other English speaking countries.

Then it would probably be listed on Wiktionary.

Red wrote:Don't tell me you don't understand how that's racist

You asked why would Croatians name their country with a name that sounds like the rare English word meaning idiot, "crote". I said that's like asking why would Nigerians name their country after an English word that's used to insult people with darker skin. If anything, what you are saying is racist.

teo123 wrote: ↑Sat Sep 12, 2020 2:13 pm Even if linguistics did argue against the existence of Croatia (which it doesn't), linguistics is a soft science. And you can use soft science arguments against it.

If Linguistics can't be used to prove the existence of Croatia, what can?

teo123 wrote: ↑Sat Sep 12, 2020 2:13 pmLike, if Croatia doesn't exist, at least thousands of people would need to be in a conspiracy, and such a conspiracy is very unlikely.

Isn't that sort of Kindergarten logic?

I don't think there is any conspiracy. All the people who say that Croatia is real are just liars or charlatans.

teo123 wrote: ↑Sat Sep 12, 2020 2:13 pm And you don't have to. You can buy a plane ticket to Croatia without many problems. This is not North Korea.

But I can't since Croatia doesn't exist. Again, the fact that you're having such a hard time understanding this is mind-blowing.

teo123 wrote: ↑Sat Sep 12, 2020 2:13 pm I don't understand what you mean.

It doesn't matter what alternative definitions you gave, the definitions I gave exist, and can serve as evidence enough.

teo123 wrote: ↑Sat Sep 12, 2020 2:13 pm Your arguments are, as far as I understand you, those two:
1. The name "Croatia" is of unclear etymology, therefore it's probably made up.
Sorry, that's an absurd argument: the words "they" and "are" are of unclear etymology, yet they are obviously part of the English language.

But I'm using the same logic you use; Looking at the etymology of a word to determine the validity of the concept it represents. You taught me how to do that.

teo123 wrote: ↑Sat Sep 12, 2020 2:13 pmIf a toponym appears only once in all historical sources and it's of an unclear etymology and it's in a source otherwise full of errors (such as the supposed river name Ira in the Ravenna Cosmography), then the unclear etymology can be used as an argument against assuming it's a real place. Most scholars assume Bustricia in Ravenna Cosmography is, unlike Ira, an actual river name, because such a name would actually make sense etymologically.

None of that matters. Croatia meaning 'tree' or 'sword' (hence, a tree holding a sword) renders the whole concept of a country named Croatia literally impossible.

teo123 wrote: ↑Sat Sep 12, 2020 2:13 pm2. Most of the people in the USA don't know Croatia is a country.
That's also a pretty absurd argument. Most of the people in Europe probably don't know Wyoming is a US state, that doesn't suggest it doesn't exist.

Wyoming doesn't exist either.

teo123 wrote: ↑Sat Sep 12, 2020 2:13 pmHell, most of the people in Europe don't know there is a state named Washington in the west of the US, they have only heard of the city with that name in the east of the US.

Well, it's important to note that only Europeans that have opinions that matter are Western Europeans.

teo123 wrote: ↑Sat Sep 12, 2020 2:13 pm Evolutionary biologist do have responses to creationists' arguments,

You just see a select few; 95% of Evolutionary Biologists don't bother wasting their time.

teo123 wrote: ↑Sat Sep 12, 2020 2:13 pmit's just that creationists are (willfully) ignorant of them.

In the same way you're willfully ignorant of the nonexistance of Croatia?

teo123 wrote: ↑Sat Sep 12, 2020 2:13 pmNo scholar, as far as I know, has suggested Tanais Tablets are fake. In fact, quite a few prominent scholars have written about them implying they are real.

You are so obviously ignorant of the literature written on the subject.

teo123 wrote: ↑Sat Sep 12, 2020 2:13 pm To be honest, I am not too aware of his work. What did he write so outrageous?

Anything implying that Croatia exists.

teo123 wrote: ↑Sat Sep 12, 2020 2:13 pm Well, it obviously depends on the state. Some USA states have good education, some don't.

Kenya isn't part of the USA...

teo123 wrote: ↑Sat Sep 12, 2020 2:13 pm Look it up on Google Maps or something like that.

And why should I trust them?

teo123 wrote: ↑Sat Sep 12, 2020 2:13 pm If I am not mistaken, China and Russia didn't recognize Croatia until late 1990s, so maybe those who made that game didn't want to have trouble printing the materials in China.

...The game came out in 2012. Plus it's a video game, no materials needed to be printed.

teo123 wrote: ↑Sat Sep 12, 2020 2:13 pm So, @brimstoneSalad and @Jebus, what do you think about the supposed IQ differences between countries? As far as I understand that, most psychologists dismiss that as racist pseudoscience.

Again, that's as you understand it.

teo123 wrote: ↑Sat Sep 12, 2020 2:13 pm Then it would probably be listed on Wiktionary.

Prove it.

teo123 wrote: ↑Sat Sep 12, 2020 2:13 pm You asked why would Croatians name their country with a name that sounds like the rare English word meaning idiot, "crote". I said that's like asking why would Nigerians name their country after an English word that's used to insult people with darker skin. If anything, what you are saying is racist.

Oh, now you're calling me a racist? Are you unaware of the beam in your eye?

I can't believe you don't see what you said was racist, it's pretty disgusting.

Red wrote:If Linguistics can't be used to prove the existence of Croatia, what can?

Well, there is some hypothetical evidence you could have against existence of Croatia. If satelite imagery showed only water here, or if measurements showed that the water near it was so deep the existence of land near it was unlikely (like the case of Sandy Island: it appeared on many maps before its existence was disproven). But you don't have anything like that for Croatia.

Red wrote:Isn't that sort of Kindergarten logic?

If you know nothing about the subject, that sort of kindergarten logic is probably your best bet.

Red wrote:I don't think there is any conspiracy. All the people who say that Croatia is real are just liars or charlatans.

If they are liars, then, by definition, there is a conspiracy.

Red wrote:But I'm using the same logic you use; Looking at the etymology of a word to determine the validity of the concept it represents. You taught me how to do that.

I was searching for obvious (to the speakers who probably made the story up, in their language) symbolic meanings in names. You are searching for names with unclear etymologies. Names with unclear etymologies are everywhere (Maria, Monica...), those don't suggest anything.

Red wrote:Croatia meaning 'tree' or 'sword' (hence, a tree holding a sword)

Those two etymologies are contradictory, the name Croatia can't come both from Slavic for "tree" and Celtic for "sword". Furthermore, both of them are, given the Tanais Tablets, highly implausible (no evidence of Celtic-speaking or Slavic-speaking people there). Vladimir, on the other hand, certainly means ruler of the world in Russian, as anybody who speaks Russian will confirm you.

Red wrote:Wyoming doesn't exist either.

I am becoming more and more certain that you are trolling, that you don't actually believe Croatia doesn't exist or that Wyoming doesn't exist. You claim to live in the US, so getting to Wyoming by plane shouldn't be hard, to see that a place named Wyoming exists for yourself.

Red wrote:Well, it's important to note that only Europeans that have opinions that matter are Western Europeans.

Well, I am quite sure that if you ask random French or German people what Wyoming is, most of them won't know that. Plus, the country with most International Olympiad in Geography medallists is the country in Eastern Europe called Poland. So is the second country by the number of International Olympiad in Geography medallists, it's Romania. People in Eastern Europe seem to be particularly well educated about geography.

Red wrote:You are so obviously ignorant of the literature written on the subject.

If you claim there is some prominent scholar arguing Tanais Tablets are fake, the burden of proof is on you.

Red wrote:Kenya isn't part of the USA

What does that have to do with this?

Red wrote:And why should I trust them?

So, you think the conspiracy includes those working at Google? Why would they do that? How would that massive conspiracy be sustained?

Red wrote:The game came out in 2012. Plus it's a video game, no materials needed to be printed.

Then, most likely, they were using outdated data from somewhere, from sometime before the break-up of Yugoslavia.

Red wrote:Prove it.

What? If "crote" is a well-known word, how come it is not present in most dictionaries?

Red wrote:Oh, now you're calling me a racist?

Saying all Croatians are idiots is racist. Racism doesn't need to have something to do with skin color.

teo123 wrote: ↑Sat Sep 12, 2020 6:42 pm Well, there is some hypothetical evidence you could have against existence of Croatia. If satelite imagery showed only water here, or if measurements showed that the water near it was so deep the existence of land near it was unlikely (like the case of Sandy Island: it appeared on many maps before its existence was disproven). But you don't have anything like that for Croatia.

That isn't good enough. Satellite or geographic evidence isn't reliable, it can easily be distorted. Relying on linguistic evidence makes much more sense.

teo123 wrote: ↑Sat Sep 12, 2020 6:42 pmIf you know nothing about the subject, that sort of kindergarten logic is probably your best bet.

Oh, so you're admitting you know nothing about the subject?

teo123 wrote: ↑Sat Sep 12, 2020 6:42 pm If they are liars, then, by definition, there is a conspiracy.

I misspoke; There is a conspiracy, it's just not a big one.

teo123 wrote: ↑Sat Sep 12, 2020 6:42 pmI was searching for obvious (to the speakers who probably made the story up, in their language) symbolic meanings in names. You are searching for names with unclear etymologies. Names with unclear etymologies are everywhere (Maria, Monica...), those don't suggest anything.

I'm doing exactly what you're doing; The fact that you find issue with my methodology I find hypocritical and unprofessional (and even disrespectful) of true linguists.

teo123 wrote: ↑Sat Sep 12, 2020 6:42 pmThose two etymologies are contradictory, the name Croatia can't come both from Slavic for "tree" and Celtic for "sword".

Exactly! They're contradictory! Hence, Croatia doesn't exist! Thank you for making my point for me.

I have a feeling you actually agree with me, but are just testing my linguistic abilities.

teo123 wrote: ↑Sat Sep 12, 2020 6:42 pmFurthermore, both of them are, given the Tanais Tablets, highly implausible (no evidence of Celtic-speaking or Slavic-speaking people there). Vladimir, on the other hand, certainly means ruler of the world in Russian, as anybody who speaks Russian will confirm you.

Well, I'm just referring to the etymology. Same logic.

teo123 wrote: ↑Sat Sep 12, 2020 6:42 pm I am becoming more and more certain that you are trolling, that you don't actually believe Croatia doesn't exist or that Wyoming doesn't exist.

Wow, really? You're accusing me of trolling? You're the one trying to defend and obviously impossible proposition; It's pretty obvious who the real troll is. What do others think?

teo123 wrote: ↑Sat Sep 12, 2020 6:42 pm You claim to live in the US, so getting to Wyoming by plane shouldn't be hard, to see that a place named Wyoming exists for yourself.

How will I know I'm actually in a place called Wyoming? I can't. Same standard applies to Croatia.

teo123 wrote: ↑Sat Sep 12, 2020 6:42 pm Well, I am quite sure that if you ask random French or German people what Wyoming is, most of them won't know that. Plus, the country with most International Olympiad in Geography medallists is the country in Eastern Europe called Poland. So is the second country by the number of International Olympiad in Geography medallists, it's Romania. People in Eastern Europe seem to be particularly well educated about geography.

What high school students research says little about the quality of their actual science. Plus, these Olympiads are just in on the conspiracy that Croatia exists anyways.

teo123 wrote: ↑Sat Sep 12, 2020 6:42 pmIf you claim there is some prominent scholar arguing Tanais Tablets are fake, the burden of proof is on you.

No, you claimed they exist, so it's on you.

teo123 wrote: ↑Sat Sep 12, 2020 6:42 pmWhat does that have to do with this?

Really?

teo123 wrote: ↑Sat Sep 12, 2020 6:42 pmSo, you think the conspiracy includes those working at Google? Why would they do that? How would that massive conspiracy be sustained?

Likely because Google was duped into thinking that Croatia is real, much in the same way many people were duped into believing that God exists.

teo123 wrote: ↑Sat Sep 12, 2020 6:42 pmThen, most likely, they were using outdated data from somewhere, from sometime before the break-up of Yugoslavia.

Wrong. Look at the countries that make up Central Europe:
https://plagueinc.fandom.com/wiki/Central_Europe

teo123 wrote: ↑Sat Sep 12, 2020 6:42 pmWhat? If "crote" is a well-known word, how come it is not present in most dictionaries?

No, prove that it would be in Wiktionary.

teo123 wrote: ↑Sat Sep 12, 2020 6:42 pmSaying all Croatians are idiots is racist. Racism doesn't need to have something to do with skin color.

It isn't racist if it's true. Of course, I'm talking hypothetically. Similar to saying that 'Mario wears Red' is true, even though the concept is based in fiction.

How can you be racist against someone if it doesn't exist anyways?

Speaking of which, you still haven't answered brimstone's question:

brimstoneSalad wrote: ↑Fri Sep 11, 2020 10:22 pm If Teo has a high IQ he's a racist, if he has a low IQ he's innocent.
We should let Teo answer that one, is his IQ low or is he a racist?

Remember Teo, silence is the language of cowards. By not responding that's more or less an admission of guilt.

-

teo123 wrote:

NonZeroSum wrote: ↑Mon May 04, 2020 7:48 pm Zatvor u Osijeku

Ul. Kardinala Alojzija Stepinca 8A, 31000, Osijek, Croatia

Report to the Croatian Government on the visit to Croatia - Council of Europe

Located in the centre of the town next to the premises of the local County Court, consisted of a two-storey building which was accommodating 136 inmates for a capacity of 110: 41 sentenced, 84 on remand detention (including one female) and 11 misdemeanour offenders.

Information Pack for British Prisoners in Croatia. Author. British Embassy

The simple test is just to walk down there yourself to prove to me the pictures are faked.

I don't have time for such things, the university is killing me.

-

teo123 wrote:

Red wrote:Wyoming doesn't exist either.

You claim to live in the US, so getting to Wyoming by plane shouldn't be hard, to see that a place named Wyoming exists for yourself.

-

-

Seriously all the time you've put into posting on the forum since then, you could have so easily dropped by the jail and had a major breakthrough or if you're right, even convinced us that massive conspiracies do happen, where tons of data out there on where a prison exists has been fabricated. Couldn't magic up more convincing material than a lifetime of trying to convince us you're more well read on all the bullshit you buy into. You're just willfully ignorant, see the quote of you arguing for conspiracies you didn't believe in, read it everyday as a reminder to yourself to do better.

-

NonZeroSum wrote: ↑Sun Sep 13, 2020 12:48 am -

Seriously all the time you've put into posting on the forum since then, you could have so easily dropped by the jail and had a major breakthrough or if you're right, even convinced us that massive conspiracies do happen, where tons of data out there on where a prison exists has been fabricated. Couldn't magic up more convincing material than a lifetime of trying to convince us you're more well read on all the bullshit you buy into. You're just willfully ignorant, see the quote of you arguing for conspiracies you didn't believe in, read it everyday as a reminder to yourself to do better.

-

I just realized the snail in your profile picture has eyes.

Red wrote:There is a conspiracy, it's just not a big one.

How the hell it wouldn't require a big conspiracy? What about all those airports that sell flights to Croatia? What about people who buy them? What happens with them? It's layer upon layer of the conspiracy that would be required.

Red wrote: Well, I'm just referring to the etymology. Same logic.

No, it's not the same logic. Names with unknown etymologies (for which scholars are suggesting contradictory etymologies or no etymologies at all) aren't rare (Monica, Mary...), and they don't suggest anything. Names with obvious ironic meanings are exceedingly rare, and, if present in some story, they suggest the story is made up.

Red wrote:How will I know I'm actually in a place called Wyoming? I can't. Same standard applies to Croatia.

Well, ask those who live there. Names are social constructs, they can be changed by will of those who use them, as well as by various linguistic phenomena. It doesn't make sense to talk about a real name of a place.

NonZeroSum wrote:you could have so easily dropped by the jail

And how will I know I really am in jail?

I don't think I will respond more some time soon, I have object-oriented programming and operating system exams this week and I need to study for them. Also, I think you are trolling.

teo123 wrote: ↑Sun Sep 13, 2020 4:10 pm How the hell it wouldn't require a big conspiracy? What about all those airports that sell flights to Croatia? What about people who buy them? What happens with them? It's layer upon layer of the conspiracy that would be required.

All of that means nothing by virtue of my reasoning.

teo123 wrote: ↑Sun Sep 13, 2020 4:10 pm No, it's not the same logic. Names with unknown etymologies (for which scholars are suggesting contradictory etymologies or no etymologies at all) aren't rare (Monica, Mary...), and they don't suggest anything. Names with obvious ironic meanings are exceedingly rare, and, if present in some story, they suggest the story is made up.

Yes, it is the same logic, as I've already proved.

teo123 wrote: ↑Sun Sep 13, 2020 4:10 pm Well, ask those who live there. Names are social constructs, they can be changed by will of those who use them, as well as by various linguistic phenomena. It doesn't make sense to talk about a real name of a place.

Wyoming literally means 'No State Here' in old Italian. Did you not watch the video I linked?

teo123 wrote: ↑Sun Sep 13, 2020 4:10 pmAnd how will I know I really am in jail?

How would I know I'm in Croatia if I 'took' a plane there?

I'm not trolling BTW, asshole. You're just being willfully ignorant of my arguments.

Red wrote: ↑Sun Sep 13, 2020 4:16 pm

teo123 wrote: ↑Sun Sep 13, 2020 4:10 pmAnd how will I know I really am in jail?

How would I know I'm in Croatia if I 'took' a plane there?

Yes, Red is trolling you obviously, because we can come up with ridiculous beliefs that you happen to know are false because you collect enough first hand testimony walking around Croatia, knowing it's culture and language in contrast to other countries you see in video footage and hear second hand from friends who visit these places. But, you aren't willing to accept the same proof against conspiracies you simply want to believe in based on personal incredulity, so you come off looking ridiculous, asking us to use scientific tests you won't use yourself.

I already said; collect visual evidence of prison architechure built for a singlar purpose, staff employed their to do a job, family visiting inmates that aren’t allowed out, collect first person testimony. Walk over to the courthouse nextdoor and sit in the gallery of a random trail, collect visual evidence of lawyers trying to prevent the defendant going to jail, the judge deciding what is admissible and what is not based on the countries laws, collect first person testimonies.

Ul. Kardinala Alojzija Stepinca 8A, 31000, Osijek, Croatia

Visiting time is the second and fourth Sundays of the month - 8:00 a.m. to 3:00 p.m

Here's the website with more information: https://pravosudje.gov.hr/zatvor-u-osijeku/6582

This is the entrance:

NonZeroSum wrote: ↑Thu May 07, 2020 6:58 am

Question: Do prisons exist?

Background research: Satellite footage and pictures of thousands of specialised prison architecture, 1000s of hours of footage inside prisons you can cross reference with pictures to know where it was taken.

Hypothesis: Prisons exist.

Test: Show up at the prison at visitor time:

The second and fourth Sundays of the month - 8:00 a.m. to 3:00 p.m.

Collect visual evidence of staff employed their to do a job, family visiting inmates that aren’t allowed out, collect first person testimony. Walk over to the courthouse nextdoor and sit in the gallery of a random trail, collect visual evidence of lawyers trying to prevent the defendant going to jail, the judge deciding what is admissible and what is not based on the countries laws, collect first person testimonies.

Procedure working: Already been done by other people, so yes.

Analyse data and draw conclusion: Occam’s razor, you’d have to believe everyone you met was a really skilled payed actor for it all to be a complex deception, which would be a really dumb idea for the complex explanations needed to even hypothesise why would someone want to do that, etc.

Results align with hypothesis.

Result: Prisons exist.

This is done 1000s of times over everyday to a reasonable burden of proof. The reasonable burden for outer body experiences like a soul, although propounded by lots of deluded people, hasn’t once been proven. People have put signs in operating rooms face up to the ceiling to know if anyone can read them, no one has ever done so.