Philosophical Vegan Forum

Red wrote: ↑Mon Jan 02, 2023 9:33 pmI'll make an effort to respond to as many of your posts as I can.

Awesome

Red wrote: ↑Mon Jan 02, 2023 9:33 pmThat won't happen if you don't promote the production of any vegan products.

Idk what that means... Like as if they put the vegan products in a closed pantry or something?

Red wrote: ↑Mon Jan 02, 2023 9:33 pmUltimately vegan products are cheaper to make in the long run (no need to deal with all that waste and using so many crops, not to mention needing to comply with more regulations), so smart enough companies do have a motivation to move to vegan products, they just need to be financially incentivized in the first place to do so.

Thats only true of vertically integrated products where they don't take government subsidies, otherwise the $ numbers will often not be in favor of veganism

Red wrote: ↑Mon Jan 02, 2023 9:33 pmBut the money is not going to vegan products, so why would it increase demand for meat?

Because meat has more demand, aka the faster it gets sold the more profitable it is so profit that goes towards the business and not labor costs will always be in the most profitable sector... That's always going to be omnivore products while the rate of growth of the total population is greater than the rate of growth of the vegan population

Red wrote: ↑Mon Jan 02, 2023 9:33 pmCompanies aren't going to be motivated to make vegan stuff by just seeing displeased vegans. Veganism is going to be a hard sell to companies and consumers alike with that sort of relationship going on.

It would not be the whole of all the vegans in the world even though it should be...

Red wrote: ↑Mon Jan 02, 2023 9:33 pmWhat?

Do you disagree? Are you suggesting you believe impulse purchases can be the thing that makes or breaks someone going vegan? Seems completely irrelevant to me

Red wrote: ↑Mon Jan 02, 2023 9:33 pmThis ignores the fact that buying vegan products still has consequences regardless of whether or not it was "impulse." And generally speaking, non-vegan people don't buy them impulsively, rather they buy them as part of their efforts to reduce their meat consumption, since they know that it's ultimately the right thing to do, even if they don't go all the way with it.

Then let those omnivores create the demand and let's pool our resources for exclusively vegan businesses

Red wrote: ↑Mon Jan 02, 2023 9:33 pmAnd as I mentioned in the other threads and as Gary mentioned in the video, more demand will mean more products, which will mean more people will purchase them, vegans and non-vegans alike, to continue reducing their harm on animals and the environment.

That's not always true, lots of time they deliberately keep their shelves full just to maintain the choice and the impression of excess... Also having totally separate stores would mean there would be even more supply assuming the omnivores still maintain some demand

Red wrote: ↑Mon Jan 02, 2023 9:33 pmI've seen a few vegan companies do this and it always struck me as strange; doesn't it make more sense to give money to... pigs that aren't in sanctuaries? Like, the ones on factory farms? Why give money to pigs that are already not suffering?

The pigs are rescues often... I agree we should do what we can for factory farmed animals but the money is limited and this is worst case scenario... Btw the reason this sanctuary was the primary benefactor is because the sanctuary owned the grocery store...

Red wrote: ↑Mon Jan 02, 2023 9:33 pmAnyway, the overwhelming majority of charitable actions (in general) tend to be very limited in their effect (sadly) even with the most effective charities reccomended by GiveWell, though with veganism it's much easier to do a LOT since it isn't a primary issue of focus comparatively speaking. Still, you should make an effort to be as effective as possible.
https://animalcharityevaluators.org/

I definitely want to maximize the impact of the money, not sure but I believe I remember disagreeing with the evaluators... Probably in the context of the touring argument

Red wrote: ↑Mon Jan 02, 2023 9:33 pmProducts that are 100% vegan will almost always have a Vegan emblem on it to show that it's certified. It's usually pretty easy to tell what products are vegan and which aren't, though it's always a good idea to read the ingredients list if you're not sure.

That's not what I meant... Like as if they traced it back all the way to the farmer... Was the farmer vegan? Was the trucker vegan? Was the processor vegan? Etc. That's all relevant if we want a completely internal vegan economy

Red wrote: ↑Mon Jan 02, 2023 9:33 pmInterestingly, that's one of the reasons why the government had to step in on the issue, and by extension why the US had its Civil War; It was because people weren't making an effort to buy slave-free products, so there wasn't any incentive to move away from it, even though it was widely unpopular.

Right so... that's my argument, Walmart won't move away from animal products by vegans buying vegan products...

teo123 wrote: ↑Wed Jan 04, 2023 10:50 am1) You are severely limiting your own options. Only interacting with people that you agree with (be it, as in the video, about abortion or, in this case, about animal rights) limits what options you have.

Limiting options is what veganism is about ... Besides, places like vegan haven weren't able to carry produce so avocados and bananas are still something that would have to be bought at omnivore stores until there was a vegan option... Yes, limit me from those evil people, if I could I would move to vegantopia and never deal with omnivores again

teo123 wrote: ↑Wed Jan 04, 2023 10:50 am2) You are doing virtue signaling. Sorry, but that's just what it is.

No, this is about money... Keeping all vegan money internal means rewarding vegans as much as possible, money is not a suggestion, it's literally what makes or breaks nearly everything in this world

teo123 wrote: ↑Wed Jan 04, 2023 10:50 am3) You are giving the companies incentive to lie, to do greenwashing. How do you know what Vegan Haven was actually doing with the pigs? Chances are, it is doing the same nonsense that PETA is doing, not actually helping the animals.

I'm arguing the reverse is true, Whole Foods with their happy eggs or welfare products or whatever... In terms of Pigs Peace Sanctuary, they're on Facebook, they've got stories of pigs, they've got a website, they literally started the only 100% vegan grocery store in WA, it seems to be a one woman show most of the time... Judy sounds like an amazing person, can definitely do a lot worse
https://www.pigspeace.org/main/index.html

teo123 wrote: ↑Wed Jan 04, 2023 10:50 amAnd, for most vegans out there, it's not doable. There are no vegan-only stores here in Donji Miholjac. Maybe there are some in Osijek, but, chances are, there are not even there.

Ought implies Can aka morality is not based off of impossible standards, if you're poor and cannot get to Seattle or wherever then do the best you can... The inability to be perfect doesn't mean all efforts even if they fall short of 100% are worthless, it's just most people will lie and say they can't give up eggs or something when they really can

@TelepathyConspiracy, it looks like we are vegans for entirely different reasons. I am a vegan because factory farming is bad for animal welfare and causes superbacteria, and capitalism allows me to influence that slightly with my dietary choices. I am not a vegan to somehow help other vegans.

teo123 wrote: ↑Sun Jan 08, 2023 2:47 pm @TelepathyConspiracy, it looks like we are vegans for entirely different reasons. I am a vegan because factory farming is bad for animal welfare and causes superbacteria, and capitalism allows me to influence that slightly with my dietary choices. I am not a vegan to somehow help other vegans.

I care that it's difficult for you to care about people who also care... Says a lot about how different this forum would have been if you cared about others... Like it's a thing where it matters who does it

TelepathyConspiracy wrote: ↑Wed Jan 04, 2023 2:10 pm

Red wrote: ↑Mon Jan 02, 2023 9:33 pmThat won't happen if you don't promote the production of any vegan products.

Idk what that means... Like as if they put the vegan products in a closed pantry or something?

You buying their vegan products incentivises companies to invest more in them.

TelepathyConspiracy wrote: ↑Wed Jan 04, 2023 2:10 pm Thats only true of vertically integrated products where they don't take government subsidies, otherwise the $ numbers will often not be in favor of veganism

Even with the subsidies it would still save a lot of money switching to vegan stuff, when the demand reduces enough the subsidies get to a point where at best they'll just make the companies have a net loss in their dairy profits.

We sort of have to work on kicking out politicians that are using this money to effectivley buy votes, especially ones who claim to be champions of the environment (looking at you Sanders). Farming subsidies for plant foods would be much better for the world than dairy.

Red wrote: ↑Mon Jan 02, 2023 9:33 pmBut the money is not going to vegan products, so why would it increase demand for meat?

Because meat has more demand, aka the faster it gets sold the more profitable it is so profit that goes towards the business and not labor costs will always be in the most profitable sector... [/quote]
Right but the business will invest money accordingly: If something isn't making money, they'll stop selling it. Vegan products are obviously profitable enough to keep on their product lines, which strongly suggests they're strong enough to stand on their own merits, especially seeing now that so many companies are adding more options. There is no reason to believe this increase in vegan sales is causing the companies to invest more in meat.

Unlike the government, companies are (usually) much smarter with the money they have, since it's limited for them. If consumers for a company start buying their vegan products instead of animal products, the demand for the latter has gone down and the demand for the former has gone up. Aside from small family owned businesses, companies don't give a shit about what's traditional, they just care about what will make money, and are constantly keeping track of what's going on.

TelepathyConspiracy wrote: ↑Wed Jan 04, 2023 2:10 pmThat's always going to be omnivore products while the rate of growth of the total population is greater than the rate of growth of the vegan population

If I didn't mention this before, a majority of the people eating these vegan alternatives are not vegans are even vegetarians, they're meat-eaters who are making an effort to reduce their consumption of animal products. You don't need more vegans necesarally, just more people trying to reduce their negative impact.

And the cycle continues. More people in general buy these products, companies invest more in them which makes veganism easier, the people buy more of the vegan products. It might not make a whole army of vegans, but it'll bring about a new wave of people who eat less meat than their parents (though there will be tons of Vegans along the way).

And as I think I mentioned in a previous post, it isn't enough to just make them taste just like meat; We also have to do our jobs and convince people why they should go for the Impossible Burger instead of the beef burger the next time they're eating out.

TelepathyConspiracy wrote: ↑Wed Jan 04, 2023 2:10 pm Do you disagree? Are you suggesting you believe impulse purchases can be the thing that makes or breaks someone going vegan? Seems completely irrelevant to me

I was trying to say there isn't any reason to believe that most of these are just impulse purchases.

Any reduction in animal product consumption is a win, and it'd be much easier to get that than anything else at this point, considering how high recidivism is.

TelepathyConspiracy wrote: ↑Wed Jan 04, 2023 2:10 pm Then let those omnivores create the demand and let's pool our resources for exclusively vegan businesses

While we should always support vegan companies, it's also incredibly important to support non-vegan ones when they're making the right steps. It could be the beginning of a company's transition to vegan products.

Red wrote: ↑Mon Jan 02, 2023 9:33 pmAnd as I mentioned in the other threads and as Gary mentioned in the video, more demand will mean more products, which will mean more people will purchase them, vegans and non-vegans alike, to continue reducing their harm on animals and the environment.

TelepathyConspiracy wrote: ↑Wed Jan 04, 2023 2:10 pmThat's not always true, lots of time they deliberately keep their shelves full just to maintain the choice and the impression of excess...

You can do that with vegan options, given how many companies are making so many different products. If something isn't making money, there isn't any reason to keep them on the shelves, and even if it were the case that having animal products on the shelves have the impression of variety, that doesn't mean they'll be selling.

TelepathyConspiracy wrote: ↑Wed Jan 04, 2023 2:10 pmAlso having totally separate stores would mean there would be even more supply assuming the omnivores still maintain some demand

And the omnivores would never get a glimpse of seeing the vegan products. If there's a store dedicated to just vegans, it can be viewed as alienating to the average meat eater, but it'll be much more approachable if it's in the same store.

TelepathyConspiracy wrote: ↑Wed Jan 04, 2023 2:10 pm The pigs are rescues often... I agree we should do what we can for factory farmed animals but the money is limited and this is worst case scenario... Btw the reason this sanctuary was the primary benefactor is because the sanctuary owned the grocery store...

If the money is limited shouldn't we allocate it to be as cost effective as possible?

TelepathyConspiracy wrote: ↑Wed Jan 04, 2023 2:10 pm I definitely want to maximize the impact of the money, not sure but I believe I remember disagreeing with the evaluators... Probably in the context of the touring argument

I'm not familiar with that, what does it say exactly?

TelepathyConspiracy wrote: ↑Wed Jan 04, 2023 2:10 pm That's not what I meant... Like as if they traced it back all the way to the farmer... Was the farmer vegan? Was the trucker vegan? Was the processor vegan? Etc. That's all relevant if we want a completely internal vegan economy

Why? Would it matter if every slaughterhouse worker were vegan (which many are) in order for 99% of people to consume anaimal products daily?

TelepathyConspiracy wrote: ↑Wed Jan 04, 2023 2:10 pm Right so... that's my argument, Walmart won't move away from animal products by vegans buying vegan products...

I already explained this.

Red wrote: ↑Sun Jan 15, 2023 5:40 pm You buying their vegan products incentivises companies to invest more in them.

If you mean investment as in merely the principal replenishing supply sure, usually investment implies expansion which is definitely not true

Red wrote: ↑Sun Jan 15, 2023 5:40 pm Even with the subsidies it would still save a lot of money switching to vegan stuff, when the demand reduces enough the subsidies get to a point where at best they'll just make the companies have a net loss in their dairy profits.

Going to have to check your math with that one, even with the subsidies?

Red wrote: ↑Sun Jan 15, 2023 5:40 pm We sort of have to work on kicking out politicians that are using this money to effectivley buy votes, especially ones who claim to be champions of the environment (looking at you Sanders). Farming subsidies for plant foods would be much better for the world than dairy.

Definitely agree but pitching it as some environmental concern will be as slow as possible if ever... besides it sounds like lying since everyone knows what the real interest is in veganism

Red wrote: ↑Sun Jan 15, 2023 5:40 pm Right but the business will invest money accordingly: If something isn't making money, they'll stop selling it. Vegan products are obviously profitable enough to keep on their product lines, which strongly suggests they're strong enough to stand on their own merits, especially seeing now that so many companies are adding more options. There is no reason to believe this increase in vegan sales is causing the companies to invest more in meat.

The reason is that the increase in sales is less so than the overall increase in the population, aka demand is still greater for the omnivore products

Red wrote: ↑Sun Jan 15, 2023 5:40 pm If I didn't mention this before, a majority of the people eating these vegan alternatives are not vegans are even vegetarians, they're meat-eaters who are making an effort to reduce their consumption of animal products. You don't need more vegans necesarally, just more people trying to reduce their negative impact.

Idk how you know that but as I said before that's fine, let them maintain demand and let's pool our money's for vegan businesses

Red wrote: ↑Sun Jan 15, 2023 5:40 pm And as I think I mentioned in a previous post, it isn't enough to just make them taste just like meat; We also have to do our jobs and convince people why they should go for the Impossible Burger instead of the beef burger the next time they're eating out.

Right so that was my argument, impulse purchases will not turn people vegan

Red wrote: ↑Sun Jan 15, 2023 5:40 pm I was trying to say there isn't any reason to believe that most of these are just impulse purchases.

The point still stands, if omnivores are buying vegan products non impulsively that means they are not going vegan because of those products

Red wrote: ↑Sun Jan 15, 2023 5:40 pm Any reduction in animal product consumption is a win, and it'd be much easier to get that than anything else at this point, considering how high recidivism is.

Easier as in nothing whatsoever except YouTube videos or podcasts, if it were to be something rather than nothing it would look like a vegan haven grocery store the size of whole foods ... I'm arguing recidivism is so high because of not having these 100% vegan grocery stores, aka it would be much easier for new people to veganism to find community and get over misconceptions... Monthly grocery trips at a regional store would be a great option for long term transition strategies

Red wrote: ↑Sun Jan 15, 2023 5:40 pm While we should always support vegan companies, it's also incredibly important to support non-vegan ones when they're making the right steps. It could be the beginning of a company's transition to vegan products.

Why? Walmart isn't going vegan anytime soon and you already said most of the demand is from omnivores that don't care anyways

Red wrote: ↑Sun Jan 15, 2023 5:40 pm You can do that with vegan options

Walmart is never going to do that while the total population is still growing faster than the vegan population

Red wrote: ↑Sun Jan 15, 2023 5:40 pm And the omnivores would never get a glimpse of seeing the vegan products. If there's a store dedicated to just vegans, it can be viewed as alienating to the average meat eater, but it'll be much more approachable if it's in the same store.

Advertising is a thing... Just saying it's alienating doesn't mean it is... People walk into stores ... People buy food ... It seems more like you're being deliberately difficult than having a real concern

Red wrote: ↑Sun Jan 15, 2023 5:40 pm If the money is limited shouldn't we allocate it to be as cost effective as possible?

Right so sinking all your cash on animals that are going to be killed five minutes later sounds crazy, the touring argument is the max ROI

Red wrote: ↑Sun Jan 15, 2023 5:40 pm

TelepathyConspiracy wrote: ↑Wed Jan 04, 2023 2:10 pm I definitely want to maximize the impact of the money, not sure but I believe I remember disagreeing with the evaluators... Probably in the context of the touring argument

I'm not familiar with that, what does it say exactly?

http://philosophicalvegan.com/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=7772

Red wrote: ↑Sun Jan 15, 2023 5:40 pm Why? Would it matter if every slaughterhouse worker were vegan (which many are) in order for 99% of people to consume anaimal products daily?

It seems crazy to believe that... Why do you believe that?

Btw, I published this two minute overview if anyone wants to make a debate playlist, swap short videos back and forth etc
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=z5fPfJductU

It's as if there's no real counter arguments and they will forever social engineer people or address straw man stuff

Any contribution from us conforming to the animal exploitation culture we should question the ethics of.