Philosophical Vegan Forum

brimstoneSalad wrote:What do you think of the different Choline forms?

I actually never looked into this. From what I read in different articles it seems really interesting.

-CDP choline: (great for cognitive function)
It crosses the blood-brain barrier with ease, as it should. This is partly because it is naturally occurring within the brain during certain chemical processes, but also because there are studies which demonstrate its positive effects on mental energy and focus/concentration and that it can be helpful for treating ADHD.
Furthermore, it is useful for improving memory retention and there are links to Citicoline improving visual function in patients with conditions such as glaucoma.
CDP Choline is said to increase the density of dopamine (the feel good hormone) receptors in the brain, as well as amplify the release of the vital hormones within the HPA (Hypothalamic–pituitary–adrenal) axis of the brain.

-Alpha GPC choline: (great for physical activity)
Oral administration of Alpha-GPC increases secretion of human Growth Hormone. This is particularly important for bone and muscle. Alpha-GPC also reduces levels of somatostatin that inhibits the production of hGH.
It stimulates the synthesis of the membrane phospholipid phosphatidylcholine (PC) in all cells of the body and brain. Phosphatidylcholine is the most abundant phospholipid in the brain. Phosphatidylcholine is important for maintaining membrane integrity and proper function. This promotes improved general memory and cognition function.
Alpha-GPC can be used as a choline source for the synthesis of the neurotransmitter acetylcholine effectively increasing transmitter levels.
The nootropic Alpha-GPC actually increases blood levels of choline and promotes lipotropic function in the liver. Lipotropic nutrients are important for fat utilization. Alpha-GPC helps the liver and gall bladder to decrease their fat deposits and increases metabolism of fat and its removal. It also works with SAMe, folic acid, vitamin B12 and B6 to support methyl group transfers.
Alpha-GPC improves nerve transmission in smooth muscle, skeletal muscle, cardiac muscle as well as the brain. This improves mental and physical function especially when exercising.

-Dietary choline: (great for... nothing)
I didn't find any additional benefits over the other types.

it is one of the least efficient choline supplements for acetylcholine conversion based of weight.

-Lecithin: (idem)

Lecithin is pretty good at converting into choline however there are still much more efficient supplements out there.

-Choline betartrate: (cheap)
Choline bitartrate benefits a person in several ways. Most notably, it’s a precursor to the neurotransmitter acetylcholine, crucial to mood, thought, and learning.

The best ones are GPC and CDP.

brimstoneSalad wrote:That, along with increased B-12 absorption, that might be a good reason to formulate the quantities to recommend up to three a day (like after meals- and if it functions as a sort of mint, that would make sense).

Three times a day? I was thinking once. It'd be more convenient.

I didn't read all of it here. But i wasn't aware of how junky-like so many vegans are o_O
GUYS! you dont need supplements! maybe get tested once for deficiency and go for that particular vitamin!
instead of jumping in a mountain of pills!
the healthiest way to live is with many fruits and vegtables! and a balanced diet!
i think its the combo of vitamins and nutrions that helps the body! not some sort of special vitamin!
are you guys the ones that insert 30 antidotes against every sneez as well? then why start with suppliments? just eat healthy and look after a defficiency!

Viktorius_the_Third wrote:I didn't read all of it here. But i wasn't aware of how junky-like so many vegans are o_O
GUYS! you dont need supplements! maybe get tested once for deficiency and go for that particular vitamin!
instead of jumping in a mountain of pills!
the healthiest way to live is with many fruits and vegtables! and a balanced diet!
i think its the combo of vitamins and nutrions that helps the body! not some sort of special vitamin!
are you guys the ones that insert 30 antidotes against every sneez as well? then why start with suppliments? just eat healthy and look after a defficiency!

That is highly incorrect. You NEED B12 supplements as a vegan. Unless you eat enough fortified cereals and fortified soy every single day.
Also, you NEED vitamin D3, vegan or not.
Those are the foundamental ones. You don't need to wait untill you are deficient of a vitamin.

Viktorius_the_Third wrote:GUYS! you dont need supplements!

So all the doctors (including vegan ones), all the scientific consensus and all of my long researches are wrong?

thebestofenergy wrote: Three times a day? I was thinking once. It'd be more convenient.

I'm thinking like a 1-3 thing.
You can take it once, and you'll get enough B-12, and just enough D, and a little of everything else (not too much choline to upset the stomach at once).

Or you can take up to three of them, and you get more of everything, but nothing in Excess (like, we could set Zinc to just 3 or 4 mg each, so three of them wouldn't overdo it).

If it was like a dental mint, then that would make sense (after meals, for cleaner teeth and fresh breath).

Younger children can only take one a day.


EDIT: I posted a couple times above your last one, you might have missed those if you were writing.

Viktorius_the_Third wrote:I didn't read all of it here. But i wasn't aware of how junky-like so many vegans are o_O

The vast majority of new vegans have pretty bad diets, until they either quit or learn to balance a vegan diet by eating more healthy things like vegetables.

GUYS! you dont need supplements! maybe get tested once for deficiency and go for that particular vitamin!
instead of jumping in a mountain of pills!

Like Energy said above, you must take B-12. There's no other way about it. Some food has vitamins added, but that's not even very reliable unless you're eating processed vegan food all day (which isn't necessarily a great idea).

Everybody also needs vitamin D. It's added in many places to milk, and some breakfast cereals, but vegans aren't drinking milk, and a lot of us don't eat breakfast cereal. There's also not enough in those.

During the winter, most people are vitamin D deficient- you don't have to test that to assume it's a safe bet that you're low on it.


Also, this wouldn't be a mountain of pills: The idea here is to formulate ONE kind of little "pill" that you can take.
I think it should be a chewable pill, like a little candy or breath mint.

the healthiest way to live is with many fruits and vegtables! and a balanced diet!

Yes, in addition to vitamin B-12 and vitamin D supplements.
Those two you can't get around.

The other vitamins we're discussing are mainly things that either:

1. Almost everybody is low on
2. Vegans in particular tend to be low on

And are also vitamins that are more "safe", which have high tolerances.

For example, we're not talking about adding Iron, which is dangerous in excess.

just eat healthy and look after a defficiency!

Hardly anybody does that. People eat junk food, and it's hard to get them to stop. People also don't have their blood tested all of the time- that's expensive: much more expensive than a daily vitamin.

The test then supplement method doesn't really apply to the vitamins we're talking about, given the near certainty of deficiency in the target market, and the overall harmlessness of the vitamins in question.

thebestofenergy wrote:

Viktorius_the_Third wrote:I didn't read all of it here. But i wasn't aware of how junky-like so many vegans are o_O
GUYS! you dont need supplements! maybe get tested once for deficiency and go for that particular vitamin!
instead of jumping in a mountain of pills!
the healthiest way to live is with many fruits and vegtables! and a balanced diet!
i think its the combo of vitamins and nutrions that helps the body! not some sort of special vitamin!
are you guys the ones that insert 30 antidotes against every sneez as well? then why start with suppliments? just eat healthy and look after a defficiency!

That is highly incorrect. You NEED B12 supplements as a vegan. Unless you eat enough fortified cereals and fortified soy every single day.
Also, you NEED vitamin D3, vegan or not.
Those are the foundamental ones. You don't need to wait untill you are deficient of a vitamin.

Viktorius_the_Third wrote:GUYS! you dont need supplements!

So all the doctors (including vegan ones), all the scientific consensus and all of my long researches are wrong?

d3? mushrooms and sun!
b12? not even researched if the body cant produce enough on your own! (btw im not b12 deficiant after 1 1/2 years of beeing 100% vegan i get myself tested every 3 months) some need it some dont!

im not a fundamental one! ive just seen soooo many vegans who live healthy and without any suppliments! you dont need them! if you have a defficency okay then do it! but i will not pump my blood with stuff my body doesnt need as long as my blood results are 100% perfect! (once my red bloodcells have been 1 or 2 points below minimum... but i was sick of the common flew (was gone after 2 days due to a strong immune system) so that was perfectly fine as well!

im just saying: dont stuff everything in your body you dont even need! if you need it im the last person who says dont take it o_o

brimstoneSalad wrote:EDIT: I posted a couple times above your last one, you might have missed those if you were writing.

Don't worry, I've read them. It's just that I went for a snack break.

brimstoneSalad wrote:I'm thinking like a 1-3 thing.
You can take it once, and you'll get enough B-12, and just enough D, and a little of everything else (not too much choline to upset the stomach at once).

Or you can take up to three of them, and you get more of everything, but nothing in Excess (like, we could set Zinc to just 3 or 4 mg each, so three of them wouldn't overdo it).

If it was like a dental mint, then that would make sense (after meals, for cleaner teeth and fresh breath).

Younger children can only take one a day.

This seems very clever. I wonder if it wouldn't be too costy to take it three times a day.
I think it'd be easier to make an option where you can either take it once a day, or twice. It'd be difficult to make proper doses to satisfy both 1 and 3 times.
Putting B12 at 250 mcg would be perfect. 500 mcg are perfectly fine aswell.
Same goes for vitamin D3 (2000 IU aren't too much).
etc. etc.

brimstoneSalad wrote:200 mg sounds OK. Kind of heavy, though.
Do you think less would be OK, or would that strongly impact the ability of the body to absorb the calcium?

Do you think there are any good studies on optimal calcium:magnesium ratios?

I think less would be fine, especially to make the 'twice a day' or 'three times a day' option (it'd be necessary in that case).
There are other components aswell that increase calcium absorption, like vitamin D and magnesium, so that wouldn't be a problem at all.

Regarding calcium to magnesium ratio, http://www.webmd.com/vitamins-supplemen ... =MAGNESIUM

Some companies that manufacturer magnesium/calcium combination supplements promote a 2:1 or 3:1 ratio as being ideal for absorption of these elements. However, there is no credible research to support this claim.

About vitamin C, http://ods.od.nih.gov/factsheets/VitaminC-QuickFacts/
Children 9–13 years 45 mg
Teens 14–18 years (boys) 75 mg
Teens 14–18 years (girls) 65 mg
Adults (men) 90 mg
Adults (women) 75 mg
Pregnant teens 80 mg
Pregnant women 85 mg
Breastfeeding teens 115 mg
Breastfeeding women 120 mg
+35 mg to these if you smoke
The upper safe limit is high, 1200 mg for 9-13 and 2000 for adults.

Taking too much vitamin C can cause diarrhea, nausea, and stomach cramps. In people with a condition called hemochromatosis, which causes the body to store too much iron, high doses of vitamin C could worsen iron overload and damage body tissues.

Good that we don't include iron.

Vitamin C dietary supplements might interact with cancer treatments, such as chemotherapy and radiation therapy

In one study, vitamin C plus other antioxidants (such as vitamin E, selenium, and beta-carotene) reduced the heart-protective effects of two drugs taken in combination (a statin and niacin) to control blood-cholesterol levels. It is not known whether this interaction also occurs with other statins. Health care providers should monitor lipid levels in people taking both statins and antioxidant supplements.

About vitamin E, http://ods.od.nih.gov/factsheets/Vitami ... fessional/
11 mg in 9-13 years
15 mg in 14+ years (19 mg for lactation)
The upper safe limit is high here aswell, 600 mg for 9-13 and 1000 mg for adults.

Vitamin E can inhibit platelet aggregation and antagonize vitamin K-dependent clotting factors. As a result, taking large doses with anticoagulant or antiplatelet medications, such as warfarin, can increase the risk of bleeding, especially in conjunction with low vitamin K intake. The amounts of supplemental vitamin E needed to produce clinically significant effects are unknown but probably exceed 400 IU/day

Some people take vitamin E supplements with other antioxidants, such as vitamin C, selenium, and beta-carotene. This collection of antioxidant ingredients blunted the rise in high-density lipoprotein (HDL) cholesterol levels

I didn't find anything that said by how much the calcium absorption is increased, unfortunately.
However, I don't think we should put both vitamin C and E togheter.

Not sure how it is in your countries, but in the Netherlands there are margarine products that have vitamin D in it. It's also added (just like B12) in products like (soy) milk and meat substitutes. Together with the sun, I should get enough (but I should watch out during the winter). But I do take vitamin B12 supplements, because I don't get enough out of vegan products.

Viktorius_the_Third wrote:d3? mushrooms and sun!

Do you eat mushrooms everyday and/or stay in the midday sun for a while, everyday? Even in winter, when there's no sun?

Viktorius_the_Third wrote:b12? not even researched if the body cant produce enough on your own! (btw im not b12 deficiant after 1 1/2 years of beeing 100% vegan i get myself tested every 3 months) some need it some dont!

Yes, it has been researched. And no, it doesn't produce enough on his own.
You don't see the deficiency untill years later, in some cases.

Viktorius_the_Third wrote:im not a fundamental one! ive just seen soooo many vegans who live healthy and without any suppliments! you dont need them! if you have a defficency okay then do it! but i will not pump my blood with stuff my body doesnt need as long as my blood results are 100% perfect! (once my red bloodcells have been 1 or 2 points below minimum... but i was sick of the common flew (was gone after 2 days due to a strong immune system) so that was perfectly fine as well!

Your body needs it (also you don't have to pump it into your blood); these supplements don't harm your body.
Every doctor and the scientific consensus recommends supplements, especially B12 for vegans. It's always better to take supplements instead of risking, especially for B12 and vitamin D, since those are really needed.
Waiting for a deficiency to take supplements is really not a good idea. If you're deficient, your body already isn't working like it should, and a deficiency may be really harmful in some cases.

Viktorius_the_Third wrote: d3? mushrooms and sun!

I figured out once how many mushrooms were needed for that; this would cost several dollars a day, due to the high cost of mushrooms.

Viktorius_the_Third wrote: b12? not even researched if the body cant produce enough on your own!

It is produced in the digestive system, but not enough. The problem is that it is absorbed best early in the digestive system, and it is not produced until quite late.

Eating one's own feces can cure deficiency- or B-12 extracted from feces. Gorillas, for example, eat their own feces, and the feces of other Gorillas- this is necessary for survival.
Almost every vegetarian animal in the wild eats its own feces, except for ruminants. It's called coprophagia, and it's virtually ubiquitous.

Some people in third world countries are reported to be vegan without B-12 deficiency, and do not eat their own feces, but they are eating contaminated food and water- contaminated with feces, dirt, and likely insects along with numerous parasites and bacteria- a practice that is not safe or advisable.

In first world countries, deficiency always develops. If a vegan successfully avoided it, he or she could probably apply for the JREF million dollar prize for exhibiting a supernatural power.

Viktorius_the_Third wrote:(btw im not b12 deficiant after 1 1/2 years of beeing 100% vegan i get myself tested every 3 months) some need it some dont!

You have either been eating fortified products quite often, or your B-12 levels have been dropping for years. It takes a very long time for deficiency to manifest with serious symptoms (it could take ten years), but your health will quietly degrade in the mean time.

Tests for B-12 levels are not accurate. If you eat sea-vegetables, algae, or fermented foods, these often have pseudo-B-12 in them, which can present as a false positive on tests and probably does not satisfy bodily needs.
That is, in the tests it looks like you have good B-12 levels, because you're eating fake B-12; in fact, you're becoming more and more deficient every year.

The only proven safe method is supplementation with a clinical source which has a proven track record of treating B-12 deficient anemia symptoms. Or coprophagia.

Viktorius_the_Third wrote: im not a fundamental one! ive just seen soooo many vegans who live healthy and without any suppliments! you dont need them!

1. They will need supplements eventually. It's a bad idea to wait until you're about to die to take them.

2. They would be healthier With supplements. Particularly B-12 and D (unless they spend a lot of time in the sun, then D isn't necessary- but that much sun exposure will cause cancer). Most of the effects are cognitive early on, so may not be easy to notice.