Paris exemption

[brimstoneSalad]

If it's true that most vegans go back to an omnivore diet, then it seems quite hopeless
How could it happen that most people go vegan, and remain so?

It's not hopeless, but it does mean that what we are doing is not working very well.

Two steps forwards, one and a half steps back.

It's still progress, but it's incredibly slow.

Also, if you convince somebody to go vegan, there's probably only a 20% chance that they'll even try it the next day (based on very crude statistics- but we don't have much better).

So, for every person you think you convinced to go vegan, at most there's only a 5% chance they'll do it and stick with it (a quarter of 20%).
Convert 20 people, and maybe you've made one vegan.

On the other hand, encouraging people to drastically reduce their meat consumption can be much more effective- which is where the "eat vegan most of the time" argument comes in.
So far, we don't have terribly good data on this to be able to reliably compare it- most comes from anecdotes.

That's one thing we desperately need: better data.

Without more data, I can only tell you what I have learned from my experiences, which is a very limited sample size, and not as rigorous as should be desired.

[cufflink]

Great thread.

Brim’s statement that veganism is a failing movement was jolting, as were the statistics on recidivism. No one wants to be part of a failing movement.

My spouse and I have been vegan now for over four months. The only lapse I’m aware of is our acceptance and eating of a neighbor’s gift of home-baked muffins that contained some dairy, which I’ve written about elsewhere. Other than that we’ve been strict.

So far it hasn’t been too much of a burden. We were never great restaurant-goers to begin with and have always done a lot of cooking for ourselves, plus we’re pretty creative in the kitchen. So finding new ways of eating in our own home has been fun. And on the rare occasions we do go out to eat, we live in a big city where there are a number of vegan-friendly options.

Last week we hosted an open house for 45 people that included a buffet dinner. The menu was strictly vegan and the response we got was gratifying, along the lines of, “Wow! I never knew vegan food could be so good!” I’m not sure we made any converts, but at least the association some people have in their minds with veganism may have changed for the better.

That said, I still feel that the sacrifice involved in going vegan should not be minimized. Of course I can only talk authentically about my own personal experience, but I doubt I’m unique. Having been a carnivore virtually all of my life (and I’m no youngster) and having derived a lot of pleasure from eating, I still find myself with cravings for animal products. A few weeks ago I actually had a dream about fried chicken! I’d like to think I’ll be able to overcome the cravings (which so far have shown no signs of fading), but sometimes I feel rather like an alcoholic who’s on the wagon but who finds himself thinking about a cold beer or a vodka martini. Having announced to all my friends that we’re now vegan, I can’t see a situation in which I’d lapse in front of other people. But out by myself, where no one I know is watching, and I’m hungry, and there are no convenient vegan options, and I’m passing by a Popeye’s Fried Chicken place, will I ever succumb to temptation? Will my convictions always be able to overcome my urges? I don’t know.

As Volenta mentioned, the social situation is also significant. Humans are social animals, and one of the most social things we do together is eat. I know from experience in a different area how divisive it can be when one person can’t eat another’s food. I grew up in an observant Jewish family that “kept kosher.” That meant there was no way we could ever eat a meal in the home of anyone who wasn’t of the same stripe as we were. I gave all of that up in my teens, and forever after, my father, on the rare occasions he visited my home, had to be served on paper plates with specially purchased, prepared food from a Jewish eatery. That was distancing, to say the least.

Will that whole scenario be played out again with my friends, all of whom are non-vegan? Hard to say. Several of them have been extremely accommodating, assuring us they’ll be happy to serve vegan meals when they invite us over. With some, though, I can see the dinner invitations falling off. (The option of eating at home beforehand and then sitting at our host’s table quietly while everyone else has dinner doesn’t appeal.) Then there’s the scenario of going out to eat with a group of non-vegans, and it’s time to choose a restaurant. I can see myself saying, “As long as there are some vegan-friendly options on the menu, I’ll be OK,” since it wouldn’t do to try to impose my preferences on the group. And I may well wind up with a choice between a dull-as-dishwater salad or a plate of steamed carrots and broccoli, while everyone else is chowing down on yummy food.

I’ve been dwelling on the negatives, but I wouldn’t have become vegan if I didn’t think they were outweighed by the positives. Going vegan—and thereby being true to my convictions and ending the cognitive dissonance I’ve tried to ignore all my life—is worth it to me. It’s just that I don’t think we’re doing ourselves any good by sweeping the negatives under the rug. I think it’s a mistake to downplay the sacrifices involved. Like it or not, we live in a meat-eating, animal-using world, and there’s absolutely no indication that’s going to change in the lifetime of any of us. So we’re going up against deeply ingrained societal habits. For those of us who are already at odds with the majority in such areas as religion or sexuality, this is yet another way we don’t fit in. And choosing not to fit in with your society takes confidence and strength of character that not all people have.

So for me, at this point in my development, the bottom lines are the following. This is what I would emphasize to anyone who’s thinking of become vegan, which I suspect will help people stay with it longer than an unrealistic and purist approach.

1. Going vegan is a sacrifice, but it’s one worth making.

2. If you lapse and fall off the wagon, don’t consider yourself a failure and give up. Get right back with the program. Don’t focus on the one chicken that died because you yielded to temptation; focus on the tens or hundreds of chickens and pigs and cows and fish that didn’t die because you’ve been vegan 99% of the time.

[TheVeganAtheist]

1. Going vegan is a sacrifice, but it’s one worth making.

2. If you lapse and fall off the wagon, don’t consider yourself a failure and give up. Get right back with the program. Don’t focus on the one chicken that died because you yielded to temptation; focus on the tens or hundreds of chickens and pigs and cows and fish that didn’t die because you’ve been vegan 99% of the time.

1) i don't think going vegan is a sacrifice, but it may feel like one. Would you say that to a serial rapist who now sees the error of their ways, making a sacrifice that they no longer rape people? I don't think animals were ever ours to use, and its not a sacrifice that we deny ourselves (even though it may feel like it)
2) I agree. If you lapse, don't give up. What made me incapable of lapsing is fully understanding what meat/dairy/eggs really means to the animals involved and how I would not want to be a party to that. Cravings go away and get replaced with others (vegan cravings).

[PrincessPeach]

But out by myself, where no one I know is watching, and I’m hungry, and there are no convenient vegan options, and I’m passing by a Popeye’s Fried Chicken place, will I ever succumb to temptation? Will my convictions always be able to overcome my urges? I don’t know.

Your self conscious is always with you.

If you are really hungry a bag of chips, 2 for 1 bag of nuts, or a can of veg. beans are usually readily available at your local convenience store. Make sure you have a can opener and get a plastic spoon.. If you are passing popeye's fucking pull up a youtube video on your phone of a chicken slaughter house see if you can find a popeyes one. After watching, you'll probably want to go to the store and buy what popeye usually ate, spinach and get a lot of it.


You need nutrients when you are hungry so an even better idea is to get a smoothie or juice... It says you live in LA, I have heard lots of smoothie & juice bars are out there...

[cufflink]

1) i don't think going vegan is a sacrifice, but it may feel like one. Would you say that to a serial rapist who now sees the error of their ways, making a sacrifice that they no longer rape people?

I would argue that if it feels like a sacrifice, then it is. In the case of the serial rapist, he (I assume it's a he) is indeed sacrificing personal pleasure when he decides to reform. That's a sacrifice that anyone in their right mind would see as not just proper but absolutely necessary. I hope I can eventually get to the point where eating vegan doesn't feel like a sacrifice, even though I know it's the right thing to do. I'm not quite there yet. But more and more I'll enjoy a vegan meal so much that I don't even think about meat, eggs, or dairy. So maybe there's hope for me.

2) . . . Cravings go away and get replaced with others (vegan cravings).

That's what I'm hoping for.

If you are really hungry a bag of chips, 2 for 1 bag of nuts, or a can of veg. beans are usually readily available at your local convenience store.

Yes, that would assuage my hunger. But I'm not yet at the point where chips, nuts, and beans seem as satisfying as the food I used to eat that's now taboo. It's like saying to an alcoholic, "If you're thinking about a beer, just have a lemonade and you'll be fine." There may be very good reasons this person should and will opt for the lemonade, but claiming that it's just as satisfying as the beer is not going to be convincing.

If you are passing popeye's fucking pull up a youtube video on your phone of a chicken slaughter house . . .

I've been trying to do similar things in my head. When I get the craving for meat, I try to picture not the "finished product" but the source--the living animal that's suffering and dying. It does help.

[brimstoneSalad]

Great post cufflink!

Since you're doing it with your spouse, you'll probably have better luck because you can support each other. Vegan couples rarely fail, in my experience.

It's usually loners without strong vegan community or mixed couples that lead to recidivism.

I would argue that if it feels like a sacrifice, then it is. In the case of the serial rapist, he (I assume it's a he) is indeed sacrificing personal pleasure when he decides to reform.

I agree. A rapist is making a sacrifice not to rape, if he has that compulsion.
Luckily food cravings aren't as strong as sexual ones, and tend to change and fade over time, where sexual frustration tends more to grow.

If you are passing popeye's fucking pull up a youtube video on your phone of a chicken slaughter house . . .

I've been trying to do similar things in my head. When I get the craving for meat, I try to picture not the "finished product" but the source--the living animal that's suffering and dying. It does help.

As I talked about earlier, like Pavlov's dog; when you associate one thing with another mentally, eventually the response is conditioned, and even if you don't actively think about the suffering and dying, the same feelings are summoned up by the ringing bell (seeing the thing in question, in this case).

It just takes time for those connections to be established in the brain. Maybe longer, the older those connection are- since they are less elastic- but elasticity never completely disappears.

I'm sorry we don't have more data about how long that takes... it would be a great bit of research to do, but I'm not sure how it could be carried out.


I think where some vegans may also not form those associations is if they engage in counter productive day-dreaming about those foods (which re-enforces the old conditioned responses and leads to faster extinction of the new ones), or if they are often exposed to those foods socially and don't bring up the related thoughts (leading to desensitization).

The reasoning may go: "Daydreaming about the food doesn't hurt the animals, so it's fine to fantasize", but it may reinforce those pathways, which could wear away at our will power and lead to falling off the wagon.

It's hard to say. All things that would be great to research, and could help reduce recidivism if we could make better evidence based recommendations. For now, it's all anecdotes and speculation.

If only I had an FMRI and staff of nurses and volunteers...

There may be some clues in similar research on alcoholism though.

[PrincessPeach]

Yes, that would assuage my hunger. But I'm not yet at the point where chips, nuts, and beans seem as satisfying as the food I used to eat that's now taboo. It's like saying to an alcoholic, "If you're thinking about a beer, just have a lemonade and you'll be fine." There may be very good reasons this person should and will opt for the lemonade, but claiming that it's just as satisfying as the beer is not going to be convincing.

Honestly you are starving yourself when you eat fast-foods, I call them 'filler foods' they fill your stomach up & give you the illusion that you are full! When you are hungry your body is telling you it need nutrients, your mind is telling you what it's known as food "cheese burger's hot dogs chicken pizza soda craappp"
All you are doing is filling your stomach up with crap that will not sustain you for the day, or even a few hours, how much energy do you really have after eating fast food?
I would probably give an alcoholic water, I suggest that you & partner cut out all soda drinks too and just drink water and buy a juicer!
You only think those foods are satisfying your hunger they're not you're fooling yourself!
For optimal nutrition eat fresh whole foods and produce..
I am not here to convince you of anything, you make your own choices I am just offering suggestions and 'in a pinch' foods..
A good way to start your morning is with some steel cut oats(flavor how you like) with and a fruit/greens smoothie with 4 tbl sp. of hempseeds! The hempseeds will provide you with omega's and amino acids and all sorts of nutrients, it's the best way to start you day my mom is doing this and she feels great and has lost 15lbs! I really feel juicing/smoothies is a good way for your pallet to get adjusted to the taste of fruits and vegetables after a week or two of juicing you will notice that when you eat raw salads and things that they will not taste as bad because your pallet is are already used to the taste of them from juicing.. You may try to eat a raw salad now & it may taste bad to you because you're not used to it yet. Juicing really helps with the transition into a more raw food based diet!

[brimstoneSalad]

Fast foods are bad for you, but they're hardly starving yourself.

Hunger and cravings are largely psychological (until the point of starvation). not due to a lack of nutrients. So, getting nutrients alone will not resolve them (although starving can make them worse, I'm sure cufflink isn't doing that ).

I don't think juicing is a very good suggestion in this case, or that juicing is generally that useful (unless you just like juice, which I do- but it's a taste thing).

[PrincessPeach]

Fast foods are bad for you, but they're hardly starving yourself.

Hunger and cravings are largely psychological (until the point of starvation). not due to a lack of nutrients. So, getting nutrients alone will not resolve them (although starving can make them worse, I'm sure cufflink isn't doing that ).

I don't think juicing is a very good suggestion in this case, or that juicing is generally that useful (unless you just like juice, which I do- but it's a taste thing).

I should have said starving yourself from nutrients, that is what that hunger feeling is telling you but we often get it confused and eat bad foods to satisfy that hunger but; the nutrient requirments are not met. Usually a few hours after you eat bad foods you're hungry again, usually you'll go right back to the same kind of bad foods you just ate thinking again that it will satisfy your bodys feeling of hunger, again you just fill your stomach up with foods that are not sustainable, so one keeps eating and eating always hungry because their bodies are screaming I need nutrient's but everytime their bodies scream this at themselves one gets confused and goes back to eating that falsly satisfying bad food... That is why more than half the people in america are obese or over weight, it makes me very sad and most people are just dumb, blind they don't know what they're doing to themselves.

Juicing would get one used to being vegan and eating vegan foods I feel it deff. makes the transition easier and more fun in my opinion.

[TheVeganAtheist]

I agree. A rapist is making a sacrifice not to rape, if he has that compulsion.
Luckily food cravings aren't as strong as sexual ones, and tend to change and fade over time, where sexual frustration tends more to grow.

I disagree. At least from how I understand it, a sacrifice has the implication that we are giving up something we are owed or own. If I sacrifice my life to save another, I am giving that which is mine (my life) in defence of another. When a serial rapist gives up raping, it may feel like a sacrifice to him because he is giving up something he desires, but the issue is he never was owed the pleasure of forcing others to have sex with him.

When people talk of sacrifice they talk about what they have (or ought to have)... i.e. pleasure of good food, happy life, life (as a whole), ideal job, etc. Do we speak of sacrifice of a child pedophile who forces himself not to rape children anymore? Do we speak of the sacrifice that a murder who loves to kill people but now chooses not to for fear of punishment?

Sure, giving up your old ways may be hard, but I don't think attaching the word "sacrifice" is suitable to something that we never had right to in the first place.