Philosophical Vegan Forum

@Jamie in Chile
My intuition says that once someone reaches a threshold of X amount of suffering or greater, its morally wrong to gain any amount of pleasure off of someone else suffering X amount or greater then X. So if someone was to have their nails pulled off of their fingers for you to spend an eternity in heaven, I would say its morally wrong for you to make that deal.

The second question was talking about the suffering we have from not being able to contribute to climate change. So not being able to drive cars, use electricity, unless its for your physical health. So no using cars to drive to a friends house to hang out, no using electricity for video games, only for food, doctor appointments, and other necessity's. How much do you think we would suffer if we only contributed to climate change when its necessary?

I think for most people the changes needed to reduce our carbon footprint, like avoiding long haul flights, not owning a petrol or diesel car, not eating meat, and getting renewable energy to your house, do not cause any suffering. If you feel "suffering" is the right way to look at such things then maybe you shouldn't make the changes.

NickNack wrote: ↑Tue Dec 29, 2020 11:09 am @Jebus
I guess the question becomes are people who consume animal products bad enough that its morally ok to kill them? I guess your answer would differ based on how much deontology/consequentialism you use. I'm not going to lie though, this topic makes me a bit uncomfortable and I have a gut reaction to say its wrong to kill other people to save animals but I cant really justify it philosophically.

Lol can you imagine the meat eaters coming to this forum thinking "let's have a look what the vegans are saying, they can't be that bad" and then seeing "are people who consume animal products bad enough that its morally ok to kill them?"

So NO you cannot kill people for consuming animal products, obviously!

It would be a crazy and unpleasant world for everyone if we starting killing people because they didn't agree with our minority viewpoint.

If it became known that a vegan had killed someone for that reason, that would put vegans in danger or retaliatory attacks and probably cause more meat to be eaten because of the damage it would cause to veganism., as well as you going to jail and causing suffering to the friends and family of the dead person, who might not be meat eaters. Doing it would increase suffering in the world, quite possibly by a wide margin.

I also think it would be wrong regardless of those arguments for more fundamental and more important reasons however I'm not really able to explain those arguments eloquently so I`ll stick to the arguments above because they are easier to make.

@Jamie in Chile
Ok so we cant philosophically justify knowingly killing someone for consuming meat in any scenario, so in the scenario of killing someone for consuming meat through global warming, we cant use the justification that it kills people which saves animals because that gives a bad wrap to veganism causing more net harm then good.

NickNack wrote: ↑Tue Dec 29, 2020 9:12 pm @Jamie in Chile
Ok so we cant philosophically justify knowingly killing someone for consuming meat in any scenario, so in the scenario of killing someone for consuming meat through global warming, we cant use the justification that it kills people which saves animals because that gives a bad wrap to veganism causing more net harm then good.

Wow. You may have just broken the forum record for the longest sentence.

Here is a question for everyone to ponder:
Which of the following individuals would you kill if you knew that no one would ever find out who did the killing: If the answer is not all, then please justify why.

A person you know will kill you if you don't kill him/her first
A person who will set off a nuclear bomb on NYC before the end of the day.
A serial killer who averages one victim per week.
A meat eater whose daily habits cause the death and suffering of 100 animals per year.

@Jebus
Yikes, making me show my true colors. Humanity sucks man, everyone I am close with consumes meat so perhaps that's why I keep flip flopping. But philosophically speaking it would be more moral to kill someone who does more harm then good, meat eaters cause more harm then good, so it would be more moral to kill meat eaters. But don't vegans also cause more harm then good? So we could also justify killing vegans right? The only good reason to not kill any human would be for your own benefit, that you don't want to go to jail and want to continue to live in a civilized society. At least I think.

NickNack wrote: ↑Wed Dec 30, 2020 6:50 amBut don't vegans also cause more harm then good? So we could also justify killing vegans right?

Probably most vegans cause more harm than good. The exception are those who get involved in activism. Either converting one meat eater to vegan or getting 10 people to reduce their meat and dairy consumption by twenty percent likely puts one in the net positive column. This is pretty much the only thing that justifies my right to exist. I have to make up for 35 years of causing a huge amount of suffering.

Bottom line: 1.79 million Corona deaths doesn't make me lose any sleep even if there are likely a few thousand vegans among the victims.

@Jebus
I think there's a big difference between those who know they are being immoral versus those who don't. If someone didn't know they were being immoral, can you blame them for being immoral? There was a time in my life where I knew so I don't have an excuse for not being vegan but I don't know if its the same for others.

@Jamie in Chile
I guess when I really think about it, humans kind of suck just in general for the wellbeing of others vegan or non vegan. And what would you say to someone who said they would kill any person to create more positive net wellbeing overall? I think it would be stupid for anyone to do so because jail, but I don't know if I could call it immoral if they are killing any person (vegan or non vegan) for the sake of raising wellbeing. What are your other arguments for why its immoral?

NickNack wrote: ↑Wed Dec 30, 2020 9:51 amIf someone didn't know they were being immoral, can you blame them for being immoral?

We are not discussing punishment or blame here. Some people are evil while others are stupid. Another category are those who purposely remain ignorant since they fear they might not like what they learn. However, as far as consequences go, this is all irrelevant.