Philosophical Vegan Forum

Just a quick question, are you interested in becoming a vegan or are you merely searching for information? Thanks, it'd better help me understand this page if you answered!

Cirion Spellbinder wrote:Just a quick question, are you interested in becoming a vegan or are you merely searching for information? Thanks, it'd better help me understand this page if you answered!

Both :3 mostly trying to dig into the philosophy behind it...the morals the...information and thinking about become one one myself thus why I started with questions as to become one..No I am looking at the morals the philosophies the evidence the data... I will dig deep because this is a decision I must make...But also to try to see if I can maybe find flaws and greatness in this whole vegan thing. To see if it what it says it is...Hopefully that makes sense but the last thing I need...is to quickly jump into something...without doing digging first...I did that once...it didnt end well.

thyplaguedoctor wrote:Hmm good point and yeah I love pasta but...I cant JUST eat pasta thats silly but I assume you mean pasta along with fruits and veggies...

Of course, not just pasta. The point of a staple is it's the main thing which fills you up, and then you have other things too.
Whole grain breads and pastas as a good staple. If you can fill up mainly on those, and then add some mixed veggies, that's a good start.
Pasta would usually go with tomato sauce, and you can buy some frozen spinach to cook in the tomato sauce. That makes a good meal.
With bread, you can buy nut butter (like peanut butter, or soynut butter).

Have you ever had things like bean dip? Refried beans?
You can buy canned fat-free refried beans at most grocery stores.
Those are another good staple.

thyplaguedoctor wrote:I wonder what tofus is like...meh....Still...Sure it is the moral thing to do to become a vegan but I have to ask...Ever swatted a fly? I mean if you want to stop animal suffering how far is too far?

Flies are not cows, or pigs, or chickens, or turkeys, or even fish. Insects are much less intelligent, and less sentient.

Anyway, you wouldn't swat a human in self-defense if he or she was trying to bite you or spit in and defecate on the food you're trying to eat?

Anyway, you wouldn't swat a human in self-defense if he or she was trying to bite you or spit in and defecate on the food you're trying to eat?
brimstoneSalad
Master of the Forum

...Your joking right? Yes I wouldnt because I am trying to eat.... da fuq question was this also how do you KNOW insects are less sentient? I mean they might be but I wonder how you all measure sentience...

thyplaguedoctor wrote: ...Your joking right? Yes I wouldnt because I am trying to eat.... da fuq question was this

You misunderstood the question.

A human is trying to spit in and defecate on your food while you're trying to eat. Do you use force to stop said human from doing this? Yes or no?

If yes, it's the same with a fly.
A fly is spitting up stomach acid on your food and shitting on it. Using force to remove the fly from your vicinity is quite reasonable.

Now, take another insect: A butterfly. The butterfly is flying around near you while you're eating, but it has no interest in spitting up into or defecating in your food. It is unreasonable to kill this insect in that circumstance, because it is not threatening you in any way.

There are cases where it is reasonable to use force, and cases where it is not reasonable to use force, regardless of whether we're talking about insects or humans. If something is threatening you in some way, it is generally reasonable to use force to defend yourself from the threat.

thyplaguedoctor wrote: also how do you KNOW insects are less sentient? I mean they might be but I wonder how you all measure sentience...

Sentience can be measured with regards to capacity to demonstrate associative learning, which proves will.
This can be expressed in computational terms.

Do you understand what I mean?

Sentience can be measured with regards to capacity to demonstrate associative learning, which proves will.
This can be expressed in computational terms.

Do you understand what I mean?
brimstoneSalad
Master of the Forum

Posts: 1895
Joined: Wed May 28, 2014 9:20 am

I can see how that proves the fly doesnt have that...But the butterfly does as it had to learn to fly the path from california to lower states from its parents and then pass it on..Maybe its become habit or instinct now but...Still they show they can learn even if it is very little.

But I am liking this vegan idea so far...Just gotta keep diggin ya know?

Please try to use the forum quote function if you can, it's a little hard to read through all of the extra text when you copy.

thyplaguedoctor wrote: I can see how that proves the fly doesnt have that...But the butterfly does as it had to learn to fly the path from california to lower states from its parents and then pass it on..Maybe its become habit or instinct now but...Still they show they can learn even if it is very little.

My point wasn't that the fly can't learn. In fact, flies can and do learn. All insects, as far as I know, have brains and can learn (very basic learning).
My point was that their level of sentience is very low. They are sentient, but they are not very sentient. They are only marginally sentient.

Animal are sentient to varying degrees.
The most crude measurement is something like brain size, or weighted with brain to body mass ratio. This isn't a very accurate measurement, but it gets you in the right ballpark.
A more accurate measurement is something kind of like an IQ test.
When you do it for non-humans, you have to set up little experiments or challenges which require basic learning to reliably overcome.
Monkeys do better than mice, and mice do much better at these things than insects, which would in turn presumably do better than worms. There's a hierarchy of cognitive ability there.

Generally speaking, birds and mammals are at the top. Then reptiles and amphibians. Then fish. Then insects. Then various kinds of worms.

It's much less wrong to kill a fly than to kill a human.

But, we probably shouldn't be killing anything without a reason to do so.

Like I said, killing a fly when you're defending yourself is justified in the same way using force against a human who was trying to do the same thing the fly is doing would be justified.

Whether you're a human or a fly, if you try to defecate in my food, I'm going to take issue with that and use force to stop you from doing that. Totally fair.

I guess I agree ...Thanks

I found something vega I can eat today close by. It is the veggie burger from burger king and it was actually filling and not bad. Still thats about the only place not expensive that serves something "Vegan" other then the store...I also got a crispers but its mostly salads which arent bad they just arent filling :/. The only other option I have found so far is a veggie sub...from subway...:/ But hey at least I am making an attempt right?

I'm glad you found some food near you.

Aren't there any grocery stores near you? Making your own food is much cheaper and more healthy.
Have you ever cooked before?