Re: Is it actually a good thing to trust the institutions?
Posted: Tue Jun 27, 2017 4:29 am
Philosophical Vegan Forum
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Either you are lying, or your English is not adequate enough to participate in this forum.teo123 wrote: ↑Sun Jun 25, 2017 4:47 am I am sorry if I went off a bit. I got slightly disappointed when two different people on this forum made a statement contrary to both the common sense and to the scientific consensus (that minimum wage helps the poor) as being somehow self-evident. Try to think with your own head, not the heads of the politicians, people!
Correct.
Patience.teo123 wrote:OK, I get it. The moment you try to talk sensically is the moment nobody wants to discuss politics with you any more. Sad, but true.
No, the criteria for what constitutes a mental illness is determined by psychologists/psychiatrists, not you or me or anyone besides an expert.This is more of a word game than anything else. How do you define mentally ill behaviour? As not normal? Murder isn't normal, most of the people don't murder. As irrational? It's hard to imagine a situation when murder would be rational. As bringing personal suffering? Murdering someone brings you a lot of personal suffering. It's hard to imagine a situation in which the murder wouldn't fulfill all the criteria for mentally ill behaviour.
What evidence that the laws don't help?Why do you keep ignoring the evidence that the laws don't help? Claims disproven long ago (like that omega-3 helps with heart disease) continue to be perpetuated by the advertisers. And again, watch the Bite Size Vegan videos on animal testing. If you invented penicillin these days, you would be banned.
Raising the minimum wage is controversial. You weren't describing the minimum wage correctly, you were just stating your opinion about it.And if an employee doesn't make him that much money, he can't pay him or he would be losing money.
I haven't stated my view about the minimum wage.It's so sad that you've heard only political propaganda and not the mainstream economics.
You have to do your own research on-line. What politicians say make the economists' head spinn.
Obamacare is controversial, it's not something everyone believes has failed. Obamacare has insured over 20 million people in the United States who weren't insured before, but it also has many problems.The vast majority of the professional economists knew that Obamacare would fail. They just weren't covered by the media. Mainstream politics and the mainstream economics are almost in complete opposition.
Near the end of the Wikipedia article on economics there is a table about what the economists have reached a consensus about. Look at it, just to get a general idea. It's so sad just how distorted picture the media portray us.
Yes. I'm saying that just because something is in a law doesn't mean it's not a good thing necessarily. Just because you need a law to enforce something doesn't mean that thing is bad. For example, like I mentioned, stopping murder is good, but you need the law to do that.I asked: if the employers paying the employee's health care with a money that would otherwise be a part of the employee's wage was a good thing, why would you need a law forcing the employers to do that? Wouldn't it be better if people could choose what to do with the money they made? Would you try to solve the problem of homelessness by forcing the employers to pay for the houses to be built?
The justice system puts people in prison who commit acts of violence, removing them from society and preventing them from killing more people.I haven't really seen evidence that justice systems solve the problems of violence, and I have seen a lot of evidence that they actually cause violence (my own experience). A right analogy to a justice system may be this: trying to use a disassembler to debug a remote server (so that it is costly to access relevant information) you know very little about how it works. Theoretically, you could solve the problem. But you are way more likely to misdiagnose it and make things worse.
Yes, Lenin and Mussolini gained acceptance because people were upset with government. But mainly, they just wanted food. Lenin's phrase was "peace, land, and bread". Whenever people are starving and suffering, if someone comes and says they will fix that, the people rally around and support that person. If there is tremendous suffering, people will turn to a dictator.Why would anybody do that? How would he gain acceptance from enough people? Lenin and Mussolini gained acceptance because people were unsatisfied with the contemporary government (regardless of whether it was actually responsible for what it was blamed), they wouldn't have been supported if there wasn't a bad government already. When Hitler became a dictator, there was already a law making it possible for a person to become a dictator, government actually helped him do that. It's hard to imagine someone becoming a dictator without there being a previous government.
There are a lot of different views on the forum. I'm sure there are some people who want to abolish the minimum wage, some people who want it to remain, and some people who want it to be raised. It's a complicated issue.brimstoneSalad wrote:I think we all (including NonZeroSum) support basic income "negative income tax" and an abolition of minimum wage so people can work together more organically and build local economies and domestic product on their own without ill-conceived government oversight to mandate a certain payment for a certain number of hours regardless of the value of money and labor in that community, as well as so people who are unable to work well can still contribute and earn something (even a couple dollars an hour) which gives them drive and purpose (to be supplemented by adequate welfare and basic free healthcare for all).
I just meant the people replying to him in this thread, who he represented as disagreeing with the consensus of economists on the problems of minimum wage.
Not in itself. Slavery is more about lack of choice than about wage.
Maybe, but products and services also become cheaper (the same way raising it makes them more expensive). The question isn't income, but purchasing power parity, and It's not clear how much minimum wage changes affect this.
OK, I am sorry.Patience.
That's the picture the criminalistic series portray to us. The real question is: does this happen enough often that it's worth doing something about it? Well, I don't think so. I have talked to some murderers, and the story is almost always something like this: "I got drunk and did things I wouldn't even think of doing if I wasn't drunk. When I realized what I had done, I felt terrible."There are people who don't value other peoples' lives and murder them who aren't mentally ill.
That people are worse off if they follow some laws, like the laws that mandate animal testing.What evidence that the laws don't help?
My point was: if politicians cared about the poor, they could simply give them money, they certainly wouldn't pass a law that effectively prevents the poorest from getting a job.Raising the minimum wage is controversial. You weren't describing the minimum wage correctly, you were just stating your opinion about it.
Substantial failures of the free markets appear to be related to the phenomenon of the radical mistranslation. It's easy for us to imagine that a loanword actually means "I don't know." in the donor language, yet there are very few alleged cases of that, and all of them, on closer examination, turn out to be myths. The same goes for the alleged substantial failures of the free market.I don't agree with you because free market capitalism with no regulation has been shown not to work, which is why the United States abandoned it, and because government has been shown to bring stability and order to society.
There are sill people in Croatia who believe communism was a good thing. The question is: has the support for Obamacare been drastically lower since it was implemented? The answer is clearly: yes.Obamacare is controversial, it's not something everyone believes has failed.
That's just simply not true. The number of people who were actually uninsured is by orders of magnitude lower than what was commonly cited.Obamacare has insured over 20 million people in the United States who weren't insured before, but it also has many problems.
What's your evidence of that? My experience has taught me exactly the opposite.The justice system, overall, makes society more safe by putting away violent people.
Correct me if I am wrong, but the people in Germany were suffering because of the inflation caused primarily by the German government printing too much money.Yes, Lenin and Mussolini gained acceptance because people were upset with government. But mainly, they just wanted food. Lenin's phrase was "peace, land, and bread". Whenever people are starving and suffering, if someone comes and says they will fix that, the people rally around and support that person. If there is tremendous suffering, people will turn to a dictator.
Yes, that's correct. Otto Von Bismarck's law that enabled one person to become a dictator was used by Adolf Hitler. However, the whole reason he came into power in the first place was because the people were suffering, just like with Mussolini and Lenin.
This is the extent to which you've still not responded to my critique of your political ideology, you also need to reply to brimstoneSalad's summation of the conversation on welfare economics above.
NonZeroSum wrote:I came on the forum announcing myself as grounded in anarchist philosophy and wanting pragmatic libertarian socialist policies instituted, and was given a fair rap - http://philosophicalvegan.com/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=2944teo123 wrote: ↑Mon Jun 19, 2017 8:52 amI think I am experiencing a bit of political discrimination here. Political discrimination is by far the strongest form of discrimination today, yet people rarely talk about it.brimstoneSalad wrote:Lots of grand claims and assertions, and refuses to provide evidence.
If you think you are being treated unfairly, explain how and we can only try to do better.
brimstoneSalad wrote: ↑Mon Jun 19, 2017 3:14 pm This is a drastic misrepresentation Teo, stop lying.
Is what's at the root of your distaste with regulation is you dislike national regulations because they typify a negative nonzerosum game between countries? That when two countries are protectionist over their markets, they both lose out? I agree to an extent but the answer isn't throwing hard fought for health and safety protections out the window as EquALLity showed, and it's not entering into international trade agreements that allow companies to sue the tax payer if those countries don't relax their laws and they want to do something illegal but are stopped, claiming it's anti-competitive when they're not allowed to do terrible environmental damage. If you don't like monopolies but you want economic liberty you should give this a read:teo123 wrote: ↑Mon Jun 19, 2017 8:52 amMaybe not all regulation. But let's do a little thought experiment. Suppose there is a scarcity of salt in some country. Now, a stranger comes and tries to sell salt. But that salt contains less iodine than government regulations prescribe. Do those regulations then do more good or harm?
Now, it's possible that FDA is doing that with drugs.
Brimstonesalad says that we need to empower FDA to end pseudoscience in medicine, but I think that's a violation of free speech.
Furthermore, what when politicians don't do what they promise? If homeopaths should be punished, so should they.
That's not really an argument against welfare economics, that's an anecdote about how the system might not be working very well in your area, you haven't given me enough information to comment. What is your time-frame? If welfare ended tomorrow there would be civil war, do you like that idea because you think abolitionism is the fastest way of bringing about liberty?teo123 wrote: ↑Mon Jun 19, 2017 8:52 amNow, most of the welfare in mainstream politics appears to be a scam. You know, like laws that tell the unemployed "If you can't make your employer 7$/h, you mustn't apply for a job." or that tell the employers "You must take away x$ every month from the wages of your employees and give them to the ensurance companies." Brimstone thinks that we should do scientific experiments on small towns to determine what's the best welfare system, but I think that's unethical.
Parents send their kids to public schools because they don't have the time or capability to teach their kids everything themselves, it's neglectful not to do so in such a case, that's why they're forced or social services intervenes. In Sweden most kids don't go to school until they're 7 years old because they can trust parents to teach them basic arithmetic and language faster 1 to 1 than in a big classroom, when they are still learning to become emotionally competent that can be best fostered under the supervision of parents who know them best. Primary age home schooling is quite common in the UK, as long as groups of parents are also letting kids get together and build their communication skills.
Social isolation after a traumatic event is an incredibly necessary event to coming to terms with your part in those actions, sometimes court cases are necessary in beating that into you with hard facts. Waving you're right to have a person forcibly arrested so they can go through that process is noble minded but would be disastrous if instituted nationally right now, but it's something we can work towards by setting up restorative justice groups that can be practiced on a small scale on a voluntary basis.teo123 wrote: ↑Mon Jun 19, 2017 8:52 amI just said that putting murderers in prisons, places from which they return with even more psychological problems, which made them murder in the first place, may be doing more harm than good.
Brimstone says that we need courts to resolve the conflicts between people. But I think judges and lawyers generally (not all of them) have no interests in bringing justice and peace to the society, but that they actually want people to argue because, well, that's how they make money.
-----------------------Myself in another thread wrote:I hope you'd agree that knowing what you know about how people being free to dress how they like doesn't have to lead to societal collapse; it would be morally reprehensible for you to join the religious police and enforce the law on the hijab. In the same vein that a draft resister would shirk a bad war even if they believed in the necessary preparedness of the military and the good consequences of involvement in previous wars. That is leave the job to someone else who believes in it wholeheartedly. Try to make your people see the ugly effects such a job has on a person.
What movement activism do you see for reducing faith in institutions that are endowed with too much political power? I see merit in wildcat unions like the IWW and CGT who are most focused on reclaiming liberties through collective bargaining and public mutual aid groups like SeattleSolidarity that aim to redress the balance of power between landlords and tenants.
-----------------------Wikipedia wrote: Noam Chomsky suggests that Smith (and more specifically David Ricardo) sometimes used the phrase to refer to a "home bias" for investing domestically in opposition to offshore outsourcing production and neoliberalism.[24]
Chomsky wrote:Rather interestingly these issues were foreseen by the great founders of modern economics, Adam Smith for example. He recognized and discussed what would happen to Britain if the masters adhered to the rules of sound economics – what's now called neoliberalism. He warned that if British manufacturers, merchants, and investors turned abroad, they might profit but England would suffer. However, he felt that this wouldn't happen because the masters would be guided by a home bias. So as if by an invisible hand England would be spared the ravages of economic rationality. That passage is pretty hard to miss. It's the only occurrence of the famous phrase "invisible hand" in Wealth of Nations, namely in a critique of what we call neoliberalism.[25]
It may be difficult, but we can and should talk about the research and it's implications. Classical crowd theory / collective behavior theory has been most useful for understanding historically irrational movements as you said the rise of Hitler, the Nuremberg rallies being a great case study, other examples include panic in the market around financial crisis. For that reason it has gotten a bad rap for being simply the study of mob mentality, but the theory is multilayered and nuanced.teo123 wrote: ↑Fri Jun 16, 2017 12:23 pmI don't think we can discuss it on forums. Invisible hand, just like the wisdom of the crowd, is a sociological phenomenon that needs to be researched experimentally. Both of them obviously exist, but it's not clear what are their ramifications, where they can be applied and when they can't. Wisdom of the crowd, for instance, obviously doesn't work in politics, it brought Hitler to the power. The same may be true for the invisible hand, but there is disappointingly little experimental research on it (probably because the politics slows the science down). I'll choose the option #2.NonZeroSum wrote:Option 3) The legitimacy and correct usage of the "Invisible hand"