Philosophical Vegan Forum

So, most of this is pretty easy- just mix and package. There are a few questions, though...

Easiest to hardest, I think:

1. Can vitashine provide the D3 in a more dense form?

wikipedia wrote:One gram is 40,000,000 (40x106) IU, equivalently 1 IU is 0.025 µg.

25 mcg would be the maximum density for 1,000 IU as solid Cholecalciferol.

It was almost 100 mg per thousand IU in their retail formula- I'm guessing they added that much oil to get it to dissolve into a liquid form for the supplement (so it can be measured in drops, and it doesn't just end up a tiny grain of insoluble salt that passes through in the stomach- which makes sense). But at that concentration, that's 2% of the mass (about two drops per) as a liquid oil, which probably isn't good for stability of the final product.

http://www.scbt.com/datasheet-205630-ch ... ferol.html

Of course, that's not a vegan source. But chemically, it seems to be available pure. Pure wouldn't be necessary, but something like ten times more concentrated would be good.

If not, it's not the end of the world, but it would be much more convenient.

What's vitashine's minimum bulk order?
As far as I know, they're the only game in town for Vegan D3.

If they won't sell in bulk, the only other option may be D2 for now, until another supplier comes along. That would suck.


2. Getting the DHA/EPA in a salt form.

http://opti3omega.com/

This seems to be the same company as vitashine, ESB Developments.

I'm not sure if they are the maker of the Algae oil, or if they have a supplier for that- but it sounds like they make it.

Will they sell their DHA/EPA in bulk?
And would they consider selling it in a solid calcium or magnesium salt/soap form? Theirs is in triglyceride form.

Here's another company:

http://www.nordicnaturals.com/en/Produc ... rodID=1649

They claim their's has more EPA than others. Although you mentioned earlier, that's probably not too important as long as the ratio is close (which ESB's is).
Although this company is not a vegan company, they seem to have some reputation, and certification for that product line.

They may be more willing to provide it in a salt form.

If not, can the Ethyl form be converted easily into a salt form?
It seems like it would just be a matter of figuring out the saponification value and then adding calcium or magnesium hydroxide, and then boiling off the excess ethanol.

It adds another step, and I'm not sure what the influence of Vitamin E preservatives would be (which would need to be added for shipping at the very least), but seems possible.

Since ethanol is volatile enough anyway, it could probably just be mixed up with the calcium/magnesium hydroxide and left to reach without bothering to boil off the excess ethanol.

I can't seem to find any other western companies offering Algae oil.

There are a lot of Chinese companies offering Algae oil, though:

http://www.alibaba.com/showroom/microalgae-dha-oil.html

I'm pretty sure some of those companies would provide a salt with a large enough order. I'm not clear on how much, if any, EPA is in those.

http://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/S ... 87797.html

This one mentions EPA, but nothing about amounts.
Would probably have to get a sample and have an independent lab assay it.


3. Bioavailability of the salt

From what I've read, it's at least somewhat available. The rat study with DHA/EPA, and the apparently proven use of fatty acid salts/soaps in animal feed to stabilize fats suggests it.

I'm having a hard time finding information on the digestion and absorption of soap though. Weird.

I'd feel better if it were tested.

How would we go about that?

Just eat it, and then have our blood serum levels tested?
How much would that kind of assay cost?


4. Taste

After being saponified, what will it taste like?

We're talking about 500 mg of the stuff, which would be 10% of the chew.

It's soap. Is it going to taste and feel like soap? Soap isn't nice to eat. But it's not water soluble, unlike most soap, so would it just taste a little waxy? Wax is much more pleasant than soap, and is widely used in candies.

Can it be deodorized after saponification? Maybe partial vacuum would be able to evaporate any remaining volatiles (in the same way vegetable oil is deodorized)?

Best care scenario, it's a soft wax and has almost no taste after saponification.
Worst case, it tastes and feels like oily fish soap.

That's definitely a concern.

But wouldn't the company think about this stuff? Do we have to give them every single detail?

thebestofenergy wrote:But wouldn't the company think about this stuff? Do we have to give them every single detail?

It's a shame, but supplement manufacturers are famously inept, due to little to no regulation or government oversight.
Of course, that same lack of oversight makes it a lot cheaper to get into the business, and make/sell your own. So, there are pros and cons to it, like anything.

Not only would we need to give them every detail, but we'd need to have a third party lab assay it to make sure they didn't put anything in it to make it easier to process (like gelatin), or leave something out, pocketing the difference.

If it's a Chinese company, I'd want to hire a local vegan to go there and do some oversight during production runs.

I'd trust a company like Deva a bit more, but I'm not sure if they'd be equipped to make it, or even willing to formulate a vitamin for such a small batch?

brimstoneSalad wrote:It's a shame, but supplement manufacturers are famously inept, due to little to no regulation or government oversight.

I asked because I have no answers to what you asked. My knowledge stops at what supplements are needed/best and in what quantity.
This idea of making our own supplement seems really interesting; I'm going to see if I stumble into something useful, but it's unlikely.
We'd need an expert at this point.

If we were going to make a supplement lets say we had the money to do so, what materials would we need? And most of all if the price is within range would it be possible for one of us to have a kickstarter created? I'm not aware of kickstarters policies and if they would even allow it, but it does seem do able to a certain extent.

dan1073 wrote:If we were going to make a supplement lets say we had the money to do so, what materials would we need?

We'd need to do five main things.

1. R&D.

We'd need to develop a Prototype first (we can do this in a kitchen, just ordering stuff off Amazon, or from Pharmaceutical chemical supply companies in small amounts/samples)
This could cost as little as a few hundred dollars, to more likely a couple thousand dollars.

And Ideally, do some product testing (both taste testing in the market, and assays on the effectiveness of unknowns in the supplement).

What about omega-3 blood testing?
Quest Diagnostics offers a blood test called the Omega-3 Index (EPA+DHA ÷ total
fatty acids x 100). This test can be used to test your patients’ red blood cells for
omega-3 and some other fatty acids. The results can help you
• Find out if your patient’s omega-3 blood level is low, normal, or high
• Balance your patient’s omega-6 to omega-3 ratio
• Find out if your patient is at risk for cardiovascular disease due to a low EPA level
• Find out if your patient is at risk of sudden cardiac death due to a low EPA level
• Find out if your patient’s level of omega-3 is increasing as expected during
omega-3 treatment
Recommendations for or against such testing are not yet available.

https://www.questdiagnostics.com/dms/Do ... 2JanMD.pdf

Dan, if you have time and a phone, can you call them up to find out (ballpark) how much this test costs?
We'd want to do several of these tests, with different people. This could be pretty affordable, or it could be insanely expensive.

We'd also need to test shelf-life; which takes time more so than money. Though there are ways to accelerate testing (like putting it in a container with high oxygen content at an elevated temperature, to test the rate of oxidative rancidification). Some companies do this kind of thing professionally, although I'm not sure how much that would cost (thousands, at least).

This might require assays to clearly quantify the level and rate of spoilage, or since the primary ingredient of concern has a strong taste then it rancidifies, it may just be able to be done by taste test.

2. Manufacturer. We'd need to contract with a manufacturer to whom we can explain what we need done (melting, mixing, forming, packaging), and who can give us a quote for their services. This would be the point where we'd best be able to establish cost per unit, and minimum production runs. We can get an estimate before hand, but this can only be established with certainty after the prototype is tested.

My guess: Most small manufacturers would do a run for $10K
I'll check into this a bit, to find out if I'm in the right ballpark.

3. Suppliers. We'd need to work out good, reliable, suppliers for all of the materials, to get them at good prices and get quotes for the volumes we would need.

4. Distributor. We'd need to have a contract with a distributor to fulfill all of the orders and handle all of those logistics. Some work exclusively online, which is fine for our purposes, while others can also get products into stores (which might be an eventual goal for convenience).
We can act as our own distributor, but this is a full-time job for one or two people. And it's something that ideally requires a bit of experience.

It involves: Climate controlled Warehousing. Taking orders. Printing shipping labels, packing, and shipping product. Contacting stores and online retailers to push the product.
It could be done as simply as from somebody's basement, although it might benefit from a special setup for storage.

dan1073 wrote: And most of all if the price is within range would it be possible for one of us to have a kickstarter created? I'm not aware of kickstarters policies and if they would even allow it, but it does seem do able to a certain extent.

Kickstarter explicitly forbids nutritional supplements:

Kickstarter wrote:We prohibit projects that are illegal, heavily regulated, or potentially dangerous for backers, as well as rewards that the creator did not make.

[*]

• Any item claiming to cure, treat, or prevent an illness or condition (whether via a device, app, book, nutritional supplement, or other means).

[...]
[/quote]
https://www.kickstarter.com/rules/prohibited

However, we could use Kickstarter to fund R&D if we create an e-book, blog, or website that documents the process of R&D.
Just not to fund a production run. So, the "product" we send to backers just has to be a creative product which documents the process. We can't take pre-orders from Kickstarter.

Indiegogo would be OK for funding a production run:
https://www.indiegogo.com/

But, if we had a successful kickstarter or an e-book or something, we'd probably have the e-mail addresses of enough people who were interested in the supplement to just take pre-orders to fund a production run.

thebestofenergy wrote: This idea of making our own supplement seems really interesting; I'm going to see if I stumble into something useful, but it's unlikely.
We'd need an expert at this point.

Sounds good.

Maybe we can find a vegan organic chemistry student who could consult on this? Maybe one could even do this for school credit.


Hello world! Any vegan organic chemistry students out there?

brimstoneSalad wrote: ↑Mon Jun 23, 2014 8:03 am Iron is the big one; that's the leading component of vitamins that can create a lethal overdose.
But studies have shown that vegans are apparently not really more likely to have problems with iron deficiency than anybody else; the less you eat, the more efficiently your gut absorbs it. Generally, iron supplements are only recommended under doctor supervision when blood tests confirm deficiency.

I was reading about some of that (in which looking at the over all diet makes sense, like you said, as would looking at the whole lifestyle too), and supplementation could also help with replacing iron lost in sweat, etc., or in the fortification of plant based staple foods, which may not be iron rich to begin with. Basically, vegans do okay if they have enough in the diet, as long as iron isn't lost in other ways, where a standard dose supplement probably couldn't hurt.

Plant Ferritin—A Source of Iron to Prevent Its Deficiency
There is a powerful regulation mechanism of iron absorption in the human body. It is the consequence of a lack of a physiologic mechanism for iron excretion. The absorption of iron strongly depends on the organism iron status. Iron uptake usually increases 10-fold in the case of its deficiency and this rule applies both to heme and non-heme iron.

Well, there seems to be a physiologic mechanism for iron excretion (sweat), as noted subseqently, among other things.

Models to assess food iron bioavailability
It is well known that the effect of dietary factors on iron bioavailability is exaggerated in single meal studies. For example, when iron absorption was measured from a 5-d complete diet, the effect of meat, calcium and ascorbic acid were diminished. In a human study, Hunt and Roughead reported a decrease in nonheme iron absorption among men consuming high bioavailability diets and an increase among those on low bioavailability diet after 10 wk of feeding suggesting that individuals adapt to the effect of dietary factors on iron absorption. Although vitamin C is known to increase iron absorption from single meal feeding studies, 2 g/d vitamin C supplementation for 16 wk had no effect on iron stores. The above studies suggest that the effect of dietary factors on iron absorption is dampened with longer periods of consumption, and that there is the possibility that adaptation may occur over prolonged exposure to iron inhibitors or enhancers. Hence, the lack of agreement between predicted absorption from existing algorithms and iron absorption measured from whole diets and long-term studies is not unexpected...

In a study with male subjects after matching for ferritin, nonheme iron absorption decreased among subjects consuming high bioavailability diets, and increased among those consuming low bioavailability diets. The high bioavailability diets included close to 400 g/day of meat or poultry, high vitamin C, and no coffee or tea. The low bioavailability diet included tea and plenty of whole grain cereals and legumes, limited amounts of poultry and fish, with no meat...

The findings of this study also imply that dietary staples in developing countries can be biofortified with iron to reduce iron deficiency despite their high phytate contents since habitual consumption of these foods may result in adaptation to the inhibitory effect of phytate.

Iron Deficiency Anemia: A Common and Curable Disease
A vegan diet is usually sufficient to prevent anemia even though the iron stores of the host may be low. The diet becomes far more relevant when the iron stores are lost, or anemia has already developed, and the host requires additional iron absorption from the gut for recovery. This occurs in the multiple settings described earlier in this work: blood loss, rapid growth during infancy, malaria, and hookworm. In these settings, the diet and iron supplements become critical for maintaining iron availability. Supplemental dietary iron may be needed, because the average Western diet is not sufficient to meet the needs of pregnancy.

After chronic physical exertion, significant iron is lost in sweat and may contribute to the deficient state...

Absolute and functional iron deficiency in professional athletes during training and recovery
BACKGROUND:
Iron deficiency (ID) is one of the most important metabolic dysfunctions. Athletic performance depends on oxygen transport and mitochondrial efficiency, thus on optimal iron balance. We hypothesised that physical extremes result in ID in elite athletes and that the short recovery period may be insufficient to allow a lasting replenishment of iron reserves.

METHODS:
Iron metabolism was examined in 20 elite rowing athletes and 10 professional soccer players at the end of a competitive season, after recuperation and during pre-season training. Absolute ID values were defined as ferritin <30 μg/L, functional ID as ferritin 30-99 μg/L or 100-299 μg/L+transferrin saturation <20%.

RESULTS:
At the end of season, 27% of all athletes had absolute ID and 70% showed functional ID. Absolute iron depletion was not generally restored after recuperation and observed at all time points in 14% of the athletes. Although athletes with initially low ferritin levels showed a slight increase during recuperation (p<0.09), these increases remained within borderline levels. Furthermore, 10% showed borderline haemoglobin levels, suggestive of mild anaemia, as defined by the World Health Organisation.

CONCLUSION:
A significant proportion of professional athletes have ID, independent of the training mode. Although recuperation seems to allow a certain recovery of iron storage, particularly in athletes with initially low ferritin levels, this retrieval was insufficient to fully normalise reduced iron levels. Therefore, iron status should be carefully monitored during the various training and competitive periods in elite athletes. An adequate iron supplementation may be needed to maintain balanced iron stores.

Anaemia and iron deficiency in athletes. Practical recommendations for treatment
Trained athletes frequently experience low levels of blood haemoglobin (13 to 14 g/100ml in men and 12 g/100ml in women) plus low haematocrit and low ferritin levels. These parameters define the concept of 'sports anaemia'. Low iron levels may be due to mechanical haemolysis, intestinal bleeding, haematuria, sweating, low iron intake or poor intestinal absorption. The resulting decrease in blood gas transport and muscle enzyme activity impairs performance. The concept of sports anaemia can be criticised. Simply measuring the blood levels does not take into account the haemodilution that occurs in athletes because of training. The lack of these measurements makes it difficult to diagnose anaemia or evaluate any treatment. Anaemia is treated by preventing decreased iron stores through a balanced food intake or iron supplements. Self-medications must be discouraged because of intolerance, risk of overdose and many other drug interactions.

Iron Deficiency Anemia in a Distance Runner
Recent work from Sweden reports iron deficiency in eight runners, demonstrated by bone marrow examination. Further work in West Germany shows low ferritin values in runners. Source of iron loss may be from hemoglobinuria [causes of which include athletic nephritis] and/or excessive sweating. Hemoglobin and ferritin values should be monitored in runners every six to 12 months.

Sweat iron concentration during 4-week exercise training

INTRODUCTION:
One possible way of iron loss is sweating. It is unclear how physical activity performed by untrained individuals affects the iron status in sweat.

OBJECTIVE:
The purpose of this study was to analyse iron concentration in sweat during 4-week exercise training to determine the changes in iron excretion during follow-up exercises.

MATERIAL AND METHODS:
43 untrained volunteers participated in the study, 29 of whom completed the full exercise programme. The training programme consisted of exercises on a cycle ergometer and cross-trainer. In the first week, participants exercised for 8 minutes on each device, in the second for 10 minutes, and in the third and fourth weeks they exercised for 15 min on each device. Intensity was submaximal and defined as 85% of maximal heart rate. A sterile sweat patch was placed on the skin between shoulder blades.

RESULTS:
Concentration of iron on the first and the fifteenth day of exercises was comparable and statistically insignificant. Iron concentration was highly increased on the last day of training in comparison with first (p<0.001) and fourteenth day (p<0.006). The median of iron concentration in 29 samples on the first day of sampling was 21.2 ppb, in the fifteenth - 52.5 ppb, and on the twenty-eighth day - 286.2 ppb. In relation with the sodium concentration, the iron content was also increased on the twenty-eighth day of the training programme (p<0.005).

CONCLUSIONS:
Iron sweat loss significantly increased during the 4-week exercise programme. A possible explanation may be improvement in the thermoregulation mechanism and secretory activity of sweat glands. Iron sweat loss may be an indicator of iron deficiency observed in active individuals.

Immunological hazards from nutritional imbalance in athletes
Supplements may be required after heavy sweating, but an excessive intake of iron facilitates bacterial growth. In making dietary recommendations to athletes, it is important to recognize that immune response can be jeopardized not only by deficiencies but also by excessive intake of certain nutrients. The goal should be a well-balanced diet.

"The diet becomes far more relevant when the iron stores are lost"... or something like a multivitamin supplement could be relevant in that case, where loss is a regular part of thermoregulation, requiring the usual electrolyte replacement (including iodine, and iron perhaps). It may be dependent on age otherwise.

Impact of aging on urinary excretion of iron and zinc
PROJECT:
Data about the influence of aging on urinary excretion of iron and zinc are scarce. The objective of the present study was to compare the concentration of zinc and iron in the urine of healthy elderly subjects and younger adults.

PROCEDURE:
Seven healthy elderly subjects and seven younger adults were selected and submitted to biochemical, clinical, and nutritional tests. After a fasting period, 12-hour urine was collected for the determination of iron and zinc concentrations by graphite furnace atomic absorption spectrophotometry.

RESULTS:
Urinary zinc and iron concentrations of the elderly subjects were not significantly different from that of younger adults. However, the total zinc and iron urinary clearance in 24 hours for the elderly was significantly higher compared with that of younger adults.

CONCLUSION:
There is an increase in urinary iron and zinc clearance with aging.

Minerals: exercise performance and supplementation in athletes
This paper examines whether mineral supplements are necessary for athletes, and whether these supplements will enhance performance. Macrominerals (calcium, magnesium, and phosphorus) and trace minerals (zinc, copper, selenium, chromium, and iron) are described. Calcium supplements are important for the health of bones. Athletes tend to have enhanced calcium status as assessed by bone mineral density, with the notable exception of female amenorrhoeic athletes. Magnesium status is adequate for most athletes, and there is no evidence that magnesium supplements can enhance performance. Phosphorus status is adequate for athletes. Phosphorus supplementation over an extended period of time can result in lowered blood calcium, however, some studies have shown that acute 'phosphate loading' will enhance performance. Athletes may have a zinc deficiency induced by poor diet and loss of zinc in sweat and urine. Limited data exist on the relationship of performance and zinc status. Widespread deficiencies in copper have not been documented, and there are no data to suggest that copper supplementation will enhance performance. There is no reason to suspect a selenium deficiency in athletes. The relationship between selenium status and performance has not been established, but selenium may play a role as an antioxidant. Because of the low intakes of chromium for the general population, there is a possibility that athletes may be deficient. Exercise may create a loss in chromium because of increased excretion into the urine. Many athletes, particularly female, are iron depleted, but true iron deficiencies are rare. Iron depletion does not affect exercise performance but iron deficiency anaemia does. Iron supplements have not been shown to enhance performance except where iron deficiency anaemia exists. In conclusion, poor diets are perhaps the main reason for any mineral deficiencies found in athletes, although in certain cases exercise could contribute to the deficiency. Mineral supplementation may be important to ensure good health, but few studies have definitively documented any beneficial effect of mineral supplementation on performance.

This information spans decades, and I'm not saying it's all in order, but it still depends on the individual too (whose dietary needs may change with the times or other habits), so that kind of supplementation should be done as needed (or guestimated, because you never know, people under medical supervision have all kinds of problems). Let's just compare sports science with starvation (fasting) for reference, among other extremes (like obesity)...

Obesity-related hypoferremia is not explained by differences in reported intake of heme and nonheme iron or intake of dietary factors that can affect iron absorption . . .

After accounting for demographic covariates and dietary factors expected to affect iron absorption, fat mass remained a statistically significant negative predictor of serum iron. This cross-sectional, exploratory study suggests that obesity-related hypoferremia is not associated with differences in reported intake of heme and nonheme iron or intake of dietary factors that can affect iron absorption.

Effect of short-term food restriction on iron metabolism
The study shows that, through an impact on mineral levels, even short-term food restrictions, as observed in many slimming women and girls, can be a reason for iron deficiency and also can alter the emotional status of healthy women. Maybe depression symptoms in anorexia or other eating disorders patients can be associated with iron deficiencies.

The treatment of iron deficiency without anaemia (in otherwise healthy persons)

Iron deficiency is the most widespread and frequent nutritional disorder in the world. It affects a high proportion of children and women in developing countries and is also significantly prevalent in the industrialised world, with a clear predominance in adolescents and menstruating females. Iron is essential for optimal cognitive function and physical performance, not only as a binding site of oxygen but also as a critical constituent of many enzymes. Therefore iron deficiency at all its levels - nonanaemic iron deficiency, iron deficiency with microcytosis or hypochromia and iron deficiency anaemia - should be treated. In the presence of normal stores, however, preventative iron administration is inefficient, has side effects and seems to be harmful. In symptomatic patients with fatigue or in a population at risk for iron deficiency (adolescence, heavy or prolonged menstruation, high performance sport, vegetarian or vegan diet, eating disorder, underweight), a baseline set of blood tests including haemoglobin concentration, haematocrit, mean cellular volume, mean cellular haemoglobin, percentage of hypochromic erythrocytes and serum ferritin levels are important to monitor iron deficiency. To avoid false negative results (high ferritin levels in spite of iron deficiency), an acute phase reaction should be excluded by history and measurement of C-reactive protein. An algorithm leads through this diagnostic process and the decision making for a possible treatment. For healthy males and females aged >15 years, a ferritin cut-off of 30 µg/l is appropriate. For children from 6-12 years and younger adolescents from 12-15 years, cut-offs of 15 and 20 µg/l, respectively, are recommended. As a first step in treatment, counselling and oral iron therapy are usually combined. Integrating haem and free iron regularly into the diet, looking for enhancers and avoiding inhibitors of iron uptake is beneficial. In order to prevent reduced compliance, mainly as a result of gastrointestinal side effects of oral treatment, the use of preparations with reasonable but not excessive elemental iron content (28-50 mg) seems appropriate. Only in exceptional cases will an intravenous injection be necessary (e.g., concomitant disease needing urgent treatment, repeated failure of first-step therapy).To measure the success of treatment, the basic blood tests should be repeated after 8 to 10 weeks. Patients with repeatedly low ferritin will benefit from intermittent oral substitution to preserve iron stores and from long term follow-up, with the basic blood tests repeated every 6 or 12 months to monitor iron stores. Long-term daily oral or intravenous iron supplementation in the presence of normal or even high ferritin values is, however, not recommended and is potentially harmful.

I guess the intermittent oral substitution of such supplements would be reasonable for vegans, especially those who eat whimsically, exercise often, intermittently fast, or are overweight, older, etc. (based on either the tests, symptoms, or lack of adverse effects from supplementation).

By the way, animal sources are not less complicated. . . "Higher heme iron intake and increased body iron stores were significantly associated with a greater risk of type 2 diabetes mellitus (T2DM). Dietary total iron, non-heme iron, or supplemental iron intakes were not significantly associated with T2DM risk."

Oh, the 'irony' (I could get a deficiency from blinking enough to read about iron)!

@cornivore Didn't know about loss in sweat for athletes, that's interesting.
Do you think a supplement should contain a small amount of iron, then? I think the risk would only be, for a supplement that doesn't taste bad, accidental overdose. This could be mitigated by containing only a very small amount, but I'm not sure how much would be both worth including and not have such risk.
Alternatively, maybe a phytate bound iron which would not have a significant risk of overdose, but could provide a boost in iron to those adapted to it from daily consumption. That's kind of speculative though.

brimstoneSalad wrote: ↑Wed Jan 23, 2019 4:28 pm Alternatively, maybe a phytate bound iron which would not have a significant risk of overdose, but could provide a boost in iron to those adapted to it from daily consumption. That's kind of speculative though.

That sounds clever. Looking at enriched pasta, the added iron is 10% daily value of iron per serving (of 2 ounces, which isn't much pasta, but 20 ounces would be a feast for an adult). Then looking at a bottle of multivitamins, the iron per serving is 100% daily value, and there's a warning on the bottle stating that 'accidental iron overdose is the leading cause of fatal poisoning for children under 6 years old' (and on the other hand, an article linked above says "iron deficiency is the most widespread and frequent nutritional disorder in the world... and the vegetarian or vegan population is at risk"). It seems that whether you put 10% or 100% in a pill, anyone could swallow the whole bottle and have a problem.

I prefer 100% iron in my vitamin, because I don't have a consistent diet yet; at times I'll fast and/or exercise, while not taking one regularly (but more often while exercising, because I think about it more). For example, I was just fasting and drinking coffee while reading about iron (and coffee, etc.), then I only slept three or four hours; when I got up, and the task at hand was to move some boxes and crates around, but I began to feel an uncharacteristic dizziness, so I took a multivitamin/mineral supplement, along with maybe a couple hundred calories of sugar and starch, and felt okay moving things around for the rest of the day (while fasting and drinking water). That isn't a typical day for me, by the way, but I guess it depends on what or why someone is supplementing too. I'll have to read through more of this topic for context on what has been discussed on the matter... I'd only looked up what had been said about iron here, for reference.

As far as taste goes (since it was mentioned on the first page too), I crush half of my pill and mix this powder with syrup, sorbet, or something like that. Although taste is an afterthought for me (or aftertaste, ha ha); I can't be sure which is absorbed better between the time release of an intact pill or digestion of a powder mixture, so I do it half and half with one of those tablet cutter/crusher tools from the drug store (and can't taste the powder in a slurry, but can taste the intact half when I don't have enough water, or a meal with that). I don't expect a pill to be both concentrated and taste good by itself, but I guess that's the idea behind the gummy supplements, which I suppose are more dangerous for children, especially; it reminds me of things like citrus scented lighter fluid... (yummy)

brimstoneSalad wrote: ↑Mon Jun 23, 2014 6:11 amNot only personally, but when I give recommendations to somebody, I want to be like "Here, take this"...

Based on findings that vitamin pill concentrations are often too variable to count on, I considered the recommendation of verifying that supplements actually contain what is listed on the label (after reading numerous articles on the topic, which indicate this as all too typical), so I look for ones that have been certified as such. Basically, that would be a 'here, take this' stamp of approval, by virtue of third party testing. It's a wonder to me how so many of the supplements in nutrition shops don't appear to be verified, yet most people who go there must swear by them. Not only that, but supplements may be adulterated with things not listed in the ingredients, as testing has shown (wait, did that sound like butt supplements)... well, typos can be disturbing (especially if they are literally true, as you may know, the most common side effect of everything is diarrhea).

Not to change the subject, I just think some kind of regulation is important (because otherwise it can be a false assumption, as supplements have been recalled, yet it doesn't mean they were approved to begin with). I still wouldn't take anything daily (unless over exerting myself), because overeating is more of a problem, in the land of plenty; therefore, over supplementation would be as likely (as they are intertwined, and things fluctuate from day to day, etc). On that note, fortified foods are regulated and tested by government agencies to a some extent, without a special stamp of approval on the package, and have been proven to reduce malnutrition, so I suppose those should be included in the diet, if supplementation is being considered, as well (but not at the same time as a concentrated pill, of course).