Conversation About Veganism on Stormfront.org

[EquALLity]

I was watching a video online, and a person in it jokingly said, "There's a lot of crazy shit on the Internet. If I go looking for theories I'm gonna end up on Stormfront.org or some shit like that."

I was curious about what that was, so I looked it up, and it's basically this white supremacist forum with a lot of Neo-Nazi stuff. There's Holocaust denial, anti-Semitic propaganda, talk about how the 'Aryan race' is superior (one example in the attachment)... I was curious if they had anything on there about vegetarianism (I assumed they were so conservative that they wouldn't have anything about veganism), so I searched it, and found this ongoing and active thread about veganism and ethics: https://www.stormfront.org/forum/t1096451/

I was like, what, lots of these people agree with vegan ethics? Some are actually vegans? What?! O_O
There are also some topics badmouthing and spreading misinformation about veganism, and some of the people who responded to this are doing that. But for a forum that doesn't have anything to do with veganism, and especially one like this, I was astounded that there are vegans on there, so many people who agree with vegan ethics, and that there is a real discussion about that.

I'm thinking I should register (I hate to register to that forum; it's too bad there is no comment option for guests), address some bad arguments, and maybe link to this forum? It's just that some vegans on there aren't addressing everything, and some people are making what might seem like intelligent arguments against veganism. They aren't just typing in all caps that veganism is stupid, they are talking about health concerns that seem real to many people, and asking genuinely what the ethical concerns are...

I wonder if TheVeganChristian is from this forum...

What do you guys think?

[Jebus]

I started a similar thread here some years ago:

http://www.veganfitness.net/viewtopic.p ... stormfront

I do find it strange how you can care for animals but not for people from a different race. However, the Nazis put in place Europe's strictest animal welfare laws and Himmler even tried to ban hunting, so there may be some type of strange correlation going on.

[EquALLity]

Holy shit, these people...

Muds?

https://www.stormfront.org/forum/t1108735-2/
My god, these people are so cringingly un-self-aware.

Wondering why there are more WN men than women, and speculating that it's because women just go along with whatever political ideas are in power.

Not only is it clear that sexism is a large part of their movement, they are sexists as they are wondering why they don't have more women in their community! Hilarious!

[AlexanderVeganTheist]

Yeah the connection is fairly weird. You'd think many nazi's are like social darwinists or ethical egotists, wanting the destruction of everything weaker than them or something like that. In the black metal scene, a scene sometimes associated with (racist) conservative views, there is a love of nature.. I guess the love of the pristine is maybe a connecting theme. Often it's a kind of Wagnerean, Nietzschean romantic worldview. Factory farming as an industrial or post-industrial practice, doesn't fit with that ideal.

[Jebus]

I'm thinking I should register

My strategy was to register and then make a few racist posts just to get a bit of credibility. I was then going to start attack the lack of logic and reason in their posts. I tried registering as "Niggerbeater" but the username was not allowed. Surprisingly, offensive language is not allowed on Stormfront. For example, you can write "African Americans are lazy and stupid" but you are not allowed to write "Niggers are lazy and stupid."

[brimstoneSalad]

I wouldn't spend your time on it. It's not even clear that teaching them sound arguments about veganism is a good thing.

Do we want Nazis advocating veganism today?
Is that really useful?

[Jebus]

Do we want Nazis advocating veganism today?
Is that really useful?

I think they may reach non-vegans that would never listen to you or me. I'm not too worried that someone may be turned off from veganism because they heard that some white supremacist is vegan.

[AlexanderVeganTheist]

I'm thinking I should register

My strategy was to register and then make a few racist posts just to get a bit of credibility. I was then going to start attack the lack of logic and reason in their posts. I tried registering as "Niggerbeater" but the username was not allowed. Surprisingly, offensive language is not allowed on Stormfront. For example, you can write "African Americans are lazy and stupid" but you are not allowed to write "Niggers are lazy and stupid."

IMO you are being deceptive and creating a facade and that is not ethical.

[Jebus]

IMO you are being deceptive and creating a facade and that is not ethical.

Who is being harmed by this deception? No one.

Who can benefit from this deception? Racist forum members who might be persuaded that their viewpoints are harmful and irrational.

How is this not ethical?

[brimstoneSalad]

IMO you are being deceptive and creating a facade and that is not ethical.

Who is being harmed by this deception? No one.

Who can benefit from this deception? Racist forum members who might be persuaded that their viewpoints are harmful and irrational.

How is this not ethical?

This is actually a VERY interesting topic.
Also, the if Nazis advocating veganism is useful (I actually don't know, it's an important question to ask though).

I would say they are both tied to a certain degree of consequential uncertainty due to lack of complete information.
Deception usually explodes and causes more harm (unforeseen) than good. But it also compromises personal reputation.

My policy is just not to lie, ever, and to find another way. I might let them assume I'm a racist if I thought it would help me talk to them (and it was useful) though; it's a fine line. I'm not sure which you're doing, though, so I don't want to make my own assumptions.

The trouble is that if we would lie to promote something, like somebody saying "going vegan will cure your cancer, sure thing!" it may damage the credibility of veganism, for example, on a larger scale (although that may be harder to do now), and create a kind of "boy who cried wolf" scenario where the true things you say may be doubted based on your motivations.