Vegan questions I can't answer

[Twizelby]

non vegan questions I can't answer.
1. How would we farm without animal products? My only un-researched thought is human manure.
2. are we just as bad for buying products that require pesticide? is it feasible to grow without pesticide?
3. Vegans lack DHA, creatine etc.
I feel healthier than ever since going vegan I'm awake, I feel alert, focused, and happier. In the face of so many naysayers, it's difficult for me to find enough unbiased evidence that we are healthy.

[brimstoneSalad]

non vegan questions I can't answer.
1. How would we farm without animal products? My only un-researched thought is human manure.

Humanure is good, also called night soil. It's used pretty widely in rural China.
There's also, you know, chemical fertilizer.

2. are we just as bad for buying products that require pesticide? is it feasible to grow without pesticide?

No, crop production for animal feed uses pesticides too- and more has to be grown (and more pesticides used) to produce meat.
It's not feasible to grow the quantity of food we currently need without pesticide. With better hydroponic infrastructure, it may become a little more practical, but that's a pretty distant future.
If we grew fewer crops (not wasted on animal feed), we might be able to reduce pesticide use. Employing more mixed agriculture helps too, but that's more complicated.

3. Vegans lack DHA, creatine etc.
I feel healthier than ever since going vegan I'm awake, I feel alert, focused, and happier. In the face of so many naysayers, it's difficult for me to find enough unbiased evidence that we are healthy.

Just take DHA and Creatine? Both are available in vegan forms- and in larger quantities and better qualities than omnivores get.
Also, if omnivores are getting Creatine from meat: it becomes carcinogenic when cooked.
DHA from fish comes with high doses of heavy metals.

A vegan diet with supplementation is superior in every conceivable way.
Of course, it's not necessary for health to supplement on these things, but it doesn't hurt either. We only need B-12.

[Twizelby]

https://medium.com/we-agvocate/can-the- ... 686fb04ed3

only the section on all farmland equal, the rest seems like rubbish

[brimstoneSalad]

https://medium.com/we-agvocate/can-the- ... 686fb04ed3

only the section on all farmland equal, the rest seems like rubbish

That section is rubbish too.

Livestock eat so much grain that it negates the benefit any use of grazing land might have had.

Chickens simply are not grazed, but given mostly corn feed (with lysine).
Cows graze for a while, but then are taken to be "finished" before being slaughtered, during which they are fattened up with high grain diets. Normal diets for cows also contain a smaller percentage of grain based foods, such as hay silage, throughout their lives (even before finishing).

Eliminating animal agriculture would free up substantial tracts of land.

It's not 1,000:1, and it's not even 10:1, but it's around two or three times (which is nothing to sneeze at).

You can do the math yourself. Industry sources are widely available online, and catalog precise recommendations for amounts and durations for feeding and finishing livestock.

[Twizelby]

I think what he was saying was that there are certain parcels of land only good for raising grains which humans could not subsist on alone healthily without first passing it through an animal. I really don't know. I remember when I lived in Georgia it was impossible to grow most veg because of the red clay. Here in VA we can grow anything. I am really interested in the solutions for such a problem.

[brimstoneSalad]

I think what he was saying was that there are certain parcels of land only good for raising grains which humans could not subsist on alone healthily without first passing it through an animal.

No, he was saying some areas are only suitable for growing grasses- too dry, etc. which are generally considered inedible to humans.

Grains and legumes are grains and legumes. Livestock feed grades can be tougher than typical human veggies (like sweet corn, or edamame, which are very soft varieties for corn and soybeans respectively), but they are not inedible, and that land is not inherently unsuitable to growing other strains. All corn it suitable to producing an edible grade of flour, all soybeans are suitable for producing tofu, soybean oil, etc.

Neither, as it turns out, is grass actually inedible; it just requires processing through methods like juicing (which just removes the indigestible fiber and leaves the nutritious juice)- the fiber can then be processed and converted into biofuels. Wild grass juice is widely considered a 'superfood', and there are plenty of people out there taking advantage of it for free.
If you're talking about efficiency...


But when I did my calculations, I included only grain and legume components of cow's diets- and ONLY the portion of those foods that humans typically eat (I excluded the inedible parts). You have to include a portion of the hay silage too, because it produces terminal grains if allowed to mature (it's usually harvested just a bit early and fermented for livestock feed).

I did not include the opportunity cost of a potential grass economy, because that's hypothetical, and would involve development of new infrastructure that we don't currently have.
Spray dried grass juice powder is a major potential cheap source of nutrition. Cows are unnecessary to utilize this, and if you factored in that opportunity cost, you would see something like a 10x difference.

I remember when I lived in Georgia it was impossible to grow most veg because of the red clay. Here in VA we can grow anything. I am really interested in the solutions for such a problem.

Culinary vegetables probably can't feed the world. Too low yield, and serious cultivation and harvesting challenges on a large scale. They are a side-dish, at best, ideally to be grown in a local garden.
Grains and legumes processed into human foods (such as pastas, breads, soy-meats) are the optimal method, supplemented by a side of veggies. Grass would be great, but again, we don't currently make use of that food source- although we should.

[Twizelby]

Here is a question I got today.

"Here's one about a vegan. A best friend of our youngest daughter was raised such. No biggy. When she came over we had enough fixings for salads, etc. for her. She never went away wanting because we love veggies and fruit. Her whole family is vegan. She married, had her first child beautiful girl. She raised her the same way and it didn't work. She is now legally blind and her bones are as brittle as a 90 year old. She isn't out of high school. Her parents are under a continuing court order to give her meat. chicken and fish mostly, daily. My granddaughter has thalassemia, a genetic disease which I found out recently, I have and it makes me chronically anemic which she is at 8. We need the iron only meat gives. You cannot get it in a bean or a pill because your body does not absorb it as well as through a meat protein. Especially with pills. At 65 I am on vitamin D and I need another supplement to help that pill motabolize into my system. Then there are people on dialysis. They have to be extrememly careful with beans, peanuts, just about anything high in phosphorus. In fact just about anything considered helathy, today, can kill them, unless they take binders along with the food. Their bodies do not rid itself of the phosphorus and dialysis does not get rid of it. it causes brittle bones and heart attacks. An all veggie diet is not exactly healthy for everyone."

[brimstoneSalad]

Here is a question I got today.

"Here's one about a vegan. A best friend of our youngest daughter was raised such. No biggy. When she came over we had enough fixings for salads, etc. for her. She never went away wanting because we love veggies and fruit. Her whole family is vegan. She married, had her first child beautiful girl. She raised her the same way and it didn't work.

There is no reason to believe that is because she didn't eat meat. It may or may not have anything to do with diet at all.
It may or may not have anything to do with nutrition at all.

This anecdote, like many, is painfully lacking in detail and evidence. The situation described is also completely lacking in controls- any number of factors could have contributed to any condition.

If it was diet, then ONLY a Registered Dietitian (an RD or RDN) with experience in vegan nutrition has the credentials to assess that. General practitioners (GPs, the typical doctor) are not any more qualified to give advice on matters of diet than a plumber is qualified to do your electrical work. The only difference is, GPs think they're qualified to give advice on nutrition because they're 'doctors', while plumbers actually know they aren't electricians.

Would you accept the advice of a plumber with an inflated ego on how to do your house's electricity and risk a house fire? No? Then don't accept the advice of a GP on serious nutritional issues- see an expert with some experience in the field -- a Registered Dietitian with a specific background of experience with vegan diets.

If a licensed registered dietitian says that somebody must eat meat, and there's no adequate vegan option for them, and a second opinion confirms this (and yes, a second opinion is necessary, even when a professional makes a bizarre claim), then it starts to become reasonable to believe that.

There is no condition in existence that absolutely requires eating meat or other animal products- although there are some conditions that may currently require drugs which are made with animal products.

She is now legally blind and her bones are as brittle as a 90 year old. She isn't out of high school. Her parents are under a continuing court order to give her meat. chicken and fish mostly, daily.

It may come as a surprise, but courtroom judges also are not experts in nutrition. Registered Dietitians are.

However, chances are this story was either fabricated from whole cloth, or greatly exaggerated from what actually happened.
High school age girls are prone to anorexia, and that's probably what happened here. She needed to eat more food, not meat.
Doctors unfortunately see this all of time, and a number of anorexics unfortunately try to hide their conditions behind veganism -- if they say they're vegan, nobody questions them when they don't eat -- and as a consequence many ignorant GPs have a unique vendetta against veganism.
It's hard to blame them when half of the cases of malnutrition they see are people pretending to be vegan to mask their eating disorders (or blaming their problems on a failed attempt at following some dietary practice they knew nothing about). but they are not the appropriate people to address the issue. A responsible doctor refers patients to a professional- either a Registered Dietitian, or possibly a Clinical Psychologist in that case. Anything else is malpractice.

A proper vegan diet provides adequate nutrition for all stages of life (vegan infants should of course drink breast milk).

http://www.eatright.org/About/Content.aspx?id=8357

It is the position of the American Dietetic Association that appropriately planned vegetarian diets, including total vegetarian or vegan diets, are healthful, nutritionally adequate, and may provide health benefits in the prevention and treatment of certain diseases. Well-planned vegetarian diets are appropriate for individuals during all stages of the life cycle, including pregnancy, lactation, infancy, childhood, and adolescence, and for athletes. A vegetarian diet is defined as one that does not include meat (including fowl) or seafood, or products containing those foods. This article reviews the current data related to key nutrients for vegetarians including protein, n-3 fatty acids, iron, zinc, iodine, calcium, and vitamins D and B-12. A vegetarian diet can meet current recommendations for all of these nutrients. In some cases, supplements or fortified foods can provide useful amounts of important nutrients. An evidence-based review showed that vegetarian diets can be nutritionally adequate in pregnancy and result in positive maternal and infant health outcomes. The results of an evidence-based review showed that a vegetarian diet is associated with a lower risk of death from ischemic heart disease. Vegetarians also appear to have lower low-density lipoprotein cholesterol levels, lower blood pressure, and lower rates of hypertension and type 2 diabetes than nonvegetarians. Furthermore, vegetarians tend to have a lower body mass index and lower overall cancer rates. Features of a vegetarian diet that may reduce risk of chronic disease include lower intakes of saturated fat and cholesterol and higher intakes of fruits, vegetables, whole grains, nuts, soy products, fiber, and phytochemicals. The variability of dietary practices among vegetarians makes individual assessment of dietary adequacy essential. In addition to assessing dietary adequacy, food and nutrition professionals can also play key roles in educating vegetarians about sources of specific nutrients, food purchase and preparation, and dietary modifications to meet their needs.

Also, here's the joint statement of position of the American Dietetic Association and Dietitians of Canada:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12778049

Lay people leaning on their grandparent's folk knowledge of nutrition love to talk about how healthy meat is, and trade stories about how unhealthy veganism is to make them feel better about eating meat, but it flies in the face of the established science, and the positions of every major government and non-governmental health organization.

If this story has even a grain of truth in it at all, and wasn't completely fabricated, it's certainly only part of the truth at best.

Furthermore, if this story is actually true in any regard, there should be public records of this trial. Trial records will provide more information, as well as may record summaries of witness testimonies.

If the records can not be presented, then this is probably either completely fabricated, or has been passed on as an anecdote from person to person losing all contact with the original reality in the process.

People on the internet lie, and this is an extraordinary claim, which requires more evidence. Even if those presenting this story honestly believe it, at best they are casual acquaintances of the people involved, and do not have all of the information.
Second hand information at best. With no details. Or evidence. Against the sum total of nutritional science and the recommendation of every major health organization.

My granddaughter has thalassemia, a genetic disease which I found out recently, I have and it makes me chronically anemic which she is at 8.

This sounds remarkably like an entirely different story that was pasted together.
Given the lack of detail, it's unlikely that this and the above story are both from the same person (what are the odds?), but let's assume it is.

The anemia caused by thalassemia isn't caused by iron deficiency, it's caused by defective genes that produce defective hemoglobin- the structure that carries oxygen in blood. People with thalassemia have anemia despite normal iron levels. Simple, but the concept that there are different causes for similar symptoms baffles and eludes some people- even some ignorant doctors (who regularly mistake thalassemia for iron deficiency anemia).

The only cure for serious cases of thalassemia is a bone marrow transplant. In minor cases (with one gene, the beta type), people can survive without treatment, and just endure the mild anemia -- for which the only treatment is a blood transfusion (but which is only used in extreme situations, like injury, or child birth).

If her granddaughter has thalassemia major, the only treatment for the anemia is blood transfusion until she can get a bone marrow transplant- which is the cure.

We need the iron only meat gives. You cannot get it in a bean or a pill because your body does not absorb it as well as through a meat protein. Especially with pills. At 65 I am on vitamin D and I need another supplement to help that pill motabolize into my system.

The iron in meat is heme iron. On its own, it's better than non-heme forms, but taken with vitamin C, non-heme iron is absorbed just as well and possibly better. Vegetarians and vegans don't have a higher incidence of anemia than meat eaters, and more importantly, anemia caused by thalassemia is not caused by low iron levels, so the whole argument of heme vs. non-heme iron is irrelevant to the point at hand.
The fact that the person who presented that argument does know that casts doubt on whether he or she even has thalassemia, and if he or she does, it paints a frightening picture of the ignorant non-expert doctor who is ostensibly administering treatment.

People may choose to believe eating meat can improve the condition (due to the mistaken association between anemia and low iron, which is only ONE possible cause of anemia, and not the cause in this case), they may also choose to believe in crystals, or psychic healing, but believing something does not make it so.

To put it another way: Drinking or eating blood doesn't give you more actual blood- that's faulty vampire logic.

If somebody is actually iron deficient, that's called iron deficiency anemia (which is its own thing), and is easily treated by vegetable sources of iron taken with vitamin C sources, and/OR just simple supplementation.
No form of anemia requires us to consume the blood of other animals.

The difference in Heme-iron-nuttery and other forms of pseudoscience is that crystals and psychic healing will only hurt your pocket book- if they make you feel better, have at them. But the reality is of heme iron is that consuming it could even be dangerous for people suffering from thalassemia, particularly the more severe cases.


Here's how it actually works:

The body has no mechanism for removing iron save by bleeding out and shedding cells, the former of which is very dangerous for an anemic, and the latter of which is very slow. The only way the body regulates iron uptake is to decrease rates of absorption from the gastrointestinal tract.
Unfortunately, for people with thalassemia anemia, the system that normally regulates that is broken, and they absorb way too much iron. Due possibly to some mechanism triggered by the anemia and the constant blood cell production, the digestive system ramps up absorption despite blood iron levels being just fine, or even too high.
Meanwhile, defective blood cells are being broken down and the iron they contained is released back into the body, continuing to build up to dangerous levels.

Those suffering from thalassemia more often end up with dangerously HIGH iron levels than low ones- in fact, that's what kills them.

Anemic with iron levels that are too high? YES! Because this kind of anemia is not cause by low iron levels.

Aside from blood transfusions, people with severe thalassemia often have to have iron chelation therapy to REMOVE iron from their bodies because it reaches such dangerously high levels.
They are advised not only to NOT eat any meat, but to avoid eating vegetable sources of iron too (particularly if eaten with vitamin C). They need less iron, not more.

If you do even basic due diligence, you'll find internet support forums for people suffering from thalassemia where they are discussing how to reduce their iron levels, and bemoaning the fact that they can't eat meat anymore because it will kill them.

This is a case where folksy advice from grandparents could be lethal. High iron levels are very dangerous.
Even slightly elevated, they increase the chance of infections, and build up in the blood causing damage to vital organs such as the liver and heart - leading most commonly to heart disease, which is the main cause of death in people with thalassemia.

This child needs to see a real expert- a Registered Dietitian. And she needs to not eat meat if her parents want her to live to see her own grandchildren

I'm sorry for her, she has a rare genetic disease with no safe treatment, and no cure beyond transplant (which causes its own problems). Making things up doesn't help anybody, though, and could hurt people who take that bad advice to heart and suffer from an iron overdose as a consequence.

Then there are people on dialysis. They have to be extrememly careful with beans, peanuts, just about anything high in phosphorus. In fact just about anything considered helathy, today, can kill them, unless they take binders along with the food. Their bodies do not rid itself of the phosphorus and dialysis does not get rid of it. it causes brittle bones and heart attacks.

The answer to this argument is in the argument itself. Phosphate binders are not some scary last resort, but the status quo for dialysis patients. It is widely considered impossible to keep phosphate levels in check without them, because virtually every food contains phosphorus, including meats and dairy, often in very high levels (which makes questioning vegetables absurd).

And dialysis CAN remove phosphorus, but the patients need to keep their levels in check between treatments and monitor them, controlling them with diet and phosphate binders, because phosphorus can build up very quickly (since it's in everything, and in large quantities).

There are plenty of vegan foods that are low in phosphorus, and a Registered Dietitian could tell you that, and if you were on dialysis, help you plan an optimal vegan diet for you needs, and help you with dosage of phosphate binders.

An all veggie diet is not exactly healthy for everyone."

While some people with rare conditions may have problems with some elements of a typical vegan diet (if there is a typical one), there is no biological or nutritional need to consume other animals- and there's no known condition that makes it necessary or even particularly helpful to do so. A properly planned vegan diet is suitable for all stages of life, and all human beings.

If anybody is having trouble with his or her diet due to a medical condition, whether it's a vegan diet or an omnivorous diet, the proper expert to consult is a Registered Dietitian, not a General Practitioner, not a plumber, and not a grandparent.

You can get advice online from people who have studied nutrition to varying degrees, but take it with a grain of salt- if you want the real deal, see a professional with specific experience in vegan diets.

[brimstoneSalad]

Twizelby, where are you getting all of this stuff?

[Twizelby]

just general debates that I enter. This one is from a comment section of an NPR forum from a story on the Diane Rehm show about the impact of meat production on the environment. I have all of my arguments well thought out until it comes to nutrition. I try to base my arguments on justifiable claims but I can't seem to find enough long term studies on health outcomes for vegans to fully satisfy my desire to make a warranted claim on the health of a vegan diet. Can everyone go vegan I guess is the question.