I have noticed with a lot of welfarists that they do not support eating veal because it is made out of young cattle and therefor inhumane meat. In fact i have seen many meat eaters saying they do not support veal. But is veal really worse than meat? Now i obviously do not support either, both are disgusting to me and should be equally disregarded. However i cannot help but notice that in a sense veal is more "humane" than eating meat.
Think about it, these cows and calf's regardless of age will living in very poor and horrible conditions where they suffer, but with veal the animal was killed faster and thus suffered much less than an adult cow would.
Can you honestly say that meat is less wrong than veal despite the fact that meat is prolonged suffering? Again i would never support either over my dead body, but it seems to me that welfarists as usual haven't really thought this one through.
Veal vs. Meat
- Kanade
- Newbie
- Posts: 44
- Joined: Tue Jul 15, 2014 11:20 am
- Diet: Vegan
Veal vs. Meat
“I am in favor of animal rights as well as human rights. That is the way of a whole human being.”
― Abraham Lincoln
― Abraham Lincoln
-
- Full Member
- Posts: 197
- Joined: Fri May 16, 2014 3:56 pm
- Diet: Vegan
Re: Veal vs. Meat
I think your asking the wrong crowd
I think it's really the cuteness factor. I always wondered how people would react if you showed a bunch of clips of animal abuse of animals they do like spliced with factory farm footage.
Imagine if you will, a teary eyed Sarah McLauchlin with the song :in the arms of the angels"
Sad puppies, dog fighting, pathetic kittens, cow slaughter, more kittens, pig slaughter, puppies.
I really don't think people are confronted with their own favoritism very often. I bet there would be angry blogs everywhere about how their pets are different from livestock.
in case you haven't seen the commercial we have in the states
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9gspElv1yvc
I think it's really the cuteness factor. I always wondered how people would react if you showed a bunch of clips of animal abuse of animals they do like spliced with factory farm footage.
Imagine if you will, a teary eyed Sarah McLauchlin with the song :in the arms of the angels"
Sad puppies, dog fighting, pathetic kittens, cow slaughter, more kittens, pig slaughter, puppies.
I really don't think people are confronted with their own favoritism very often. I bet there would be angry blogs everywhere about how their pets are different from livestock.
in case you haven't seen the commercial we have in the states
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9gspElv1yvc
- Shadow Fox
- Junior Member
- Posts: 95
- Joined: Wed Jul 23, 2014 6:26 am
- Contact:
Re: Veal vs. Meat
I don't like how veal tastes and I do not agree with killing animals when they are too young.
Its inhumane I think.
Its inhumane I think.
We are all born Atheists, everyone of us. We are born without the Shackles of theism arresting our minds. It is not until we are poisoned by the fears and delusions of others that we become trapped in the psychopathic dream world of theism.
-
- Newbie
- Posts: 10
- Joined: Fri Jul 11, 2014 7:41 am
- Diet: Vegan
Re: Veal vs. Meat
I don't get big difference between young animal or older one, younger one just look cuter so create more emotions for human when seeing/knowing them being killed.Shadow Fox wrote:I don't like how veal tastes and I do not agree with killing animals when they are too young.
Its inhumane I think.
I don't understand your argument, why killing older ones is humane but killing young ones is inhumane?
- TheVeganAtheist
- Site Admin
- Posts: 824
- Joined: Sun May 04, 2014 9:39 am
- Diet: Vegan
- Location: Canada
Re: Veal vs. Meat
what has age got to do with humane or inhumane? At what age/point does it become humane? What has an adult animal done to deserve death?Shadow Fox wrote:I don't like how veal tastes and I do not agree with killing animals when they are too young.
Its inhumane I think.
Do you realize that the average age of a slaughtered chicken is between 30 days and 6 months? Pigs are slaughtered between 1.5 - 1 year. Seems like they all are babies when slaughtered.
Do you find the forum to be quiet and inactive?
- Do your part by engaging in new and old topics
- Don't wait for others to start NEW topics, post one yourself
- Invite family, friends or critics
- Do your part by engaging in new and old topics
- Don't wait for others to start NEW topics, post one yourself
- Invite family, friends or critics
- Shadow Fox
- Junior Member
- Posts: 95
- Joined: Wed Jul 23, 2014 6:26 am
- Contact:
Re: Veal vs. Meat
It is hard to explain.kamitis wrote:I don't get big difference between young animal or older one, younger one just look cuter so create more emotions for human when seeing/knowing them being killed.Shadow Fox wrote:I don't like how veal tastes and I do not agree with killing animals when they are too young.
Its inhumane I think.
I don't understand your argument, why killing older ones is humane but killing young ones is inhumane?
I will use it more like this and switch the argument a little.
Is it more wrong to murder a baby and dash it against the rocks? Or is it just as bad to stab a 40 year old man to death?
Which one sounds more evil and sinister to you? I guess you could call it a common appeal to youth fallacy. Making a special exception for the young as being something special. However, I am not so sure that is the case. It is human nature to be more nurturing and sensitive to the young and feel an almost parental compassion for them, even if they are not our own or our own species.
It is for this very reason that we feel more emotions while staring into the fluffy face of kitten or a Puppy then a cat or a dog.
The younger animal still has its baby like qualities that makes us feel terrible about ending its life shorter then it should had.
At least some of the meat we eat and the milk we drink comes from cows that get 6-8 months of pasture time.
You can always get free range chicken eggs etc. Cut down on spending money on the caged for life time animals like I do. I only drink organic valley which claims at least 120 days of time out in the open fields.
AS for my meat....well I can't afford to buy the organic meat all the time so wtf ever. At least I am trying.
@Veganatheist - I cannot help but feel you are almost appealing to emotion right now. I could just tu que que and use a bit of a appeal to nature comment and just go out and mention at what right does other animals have the right to take the lives of other animals, like eggs stealing mammals and animals that murder newly born animals like seagulls do to baby seaturtles. But that would most likely agitate you. I am unsure of how to answer that without giving a answer that would not upset you.
We are all born Atheists, everyone of us. We are born without the Shackles of theism arresting our minds. It is not until we are poisoned by the fears and delusions of others that we become trapped in the psychopathic dream world of theism.
- TheVeganAtheist
- Site Admin
- Posts: 824
- Joined: Sun May 04, 2014 9:39 am
- Diet: Vegan
- Location: Canada
Re: Veal vs. Meat
what did I say that seemed emotional? I asked a few questions. Zero emotion.@Veganatheist - I cannot help but feel you are almost appealing to emotion right now. I could just tu que que and use a bit of a appeal to nature comment and just go out and mention at what right does other animals have the right to take the lives of other animals, like eggs stealing mammals and animals that murder newly born animals like seagulls do to baby seaturtles. But that would most likely agitate you. I am unsure of how to answer that without giving a answer that would not upset you.
Do you find the forum to be quiet and inactive?
- Do your part by engaging in new and old topics
- Don't wait for others to start NEW topics, post one yourself
- Invite family, friends or critics
- Do your part by engaging in new and old topics
- Don't wait for others to start NEW topics, post one yourself
- Invite family, friends or critics
- Shadow Fox
- Junior Member
- Posts: 95
- Joined: Wed Jul 23, 2014 6:26 am
- Contact:
Re: Veal vs. Meat
TheVeganAtheist wrote:what did I say that seemed emotional? I asked a few questions. Zero emotion.@Veganatheist - I cannot help but feel you are almost appealing to emotion right now. I could just tu que que and use a bit of a appeal to nature comment and just go out and mention at what right does other animals have the right to take the lives of other animals, like eggs stealing mammals and animals that murder newly born animals like seagulls do to baby sea turtles. But that would most likely agitate you. I am unsure of how to answer that without giving a answer that would not upset you.
It just felt that way to me is all. I am not really accusing you of the actual fallacy itself. It felt almost like your trying to "guilt trip" what have they done to deserve death line and then making a contrast to the age of the chicken when its harvested etc. To me, that feels a lot like someone is trying to make a play for emotions and bank on the opposition to lean over on it or. well, I am sure you know what I mean.what has age got to do with humane or inhumane? At what age/point does it become humane? What has an adult animal done to deserve death?
Do you realize that the average age of a slaughtered chicken is between 30 days and 6 months? Pigs are slaughtered between 1.5 - 1 year. Seems like they all are babies when slaughtered.
I am terrible at explaining things but I hope you get what I mean.
We are all born Atheists, everyone of us. We are born without the Shackles of theism arresting our minds. It is not until we are poisoned by the fears and delusions of others that we become trapped in the psychopathic dream world of theism.
- TheVeganAtheist
- Site Admin
- Posts: 824
- Joined: Sun May 04, 2014 9:39 am
- Diet: Vegan
- Location: Canada
Re: Veal vs. Meat
well you were mistaken. You still have not answered the questions however.Shadow Fox wrote: It just felt that way to me is all. I am not really accusing you of the actual fallacy itself. It felt almost like your trying to "guilt trip" what have they done to deserve death line and then making a contrast to the age of the chicken when its harvested etc. To me, that feels a lot like someone is trying to make a play for emotions and bank on the opposition to lean over on it or. well, I am sure you know what I mean.
I am terrible at explaining things but I hope you get what I mean.
Do you find the forum to be quiet and inactive?
- Do your part by engaging in new and old topics
- Don't wait for others to start NEW topics, post one yourself
- Invite family, friends or critics
- Do your part by engaging in new and old topics
- Don't wait for others to start NEW topics, post one yourself
- Invite family, friends or critics
- Shadow Fox
- Junior Member
- Posts: 95
- Joined: Wed Jul 23, 2014 6:26 am
- Contact:
Re: Veal vs. Meat
Very well than.
1. Any age past what would be considered to be the animals maturity point. Example: Humans is generally viewed as 18-21 or so. Once a creature is past the point of maturity is when it has loved long enough. Be it out in a field or in one of those large mega camps or holding cells that is one of the primary concern for Vegans as I have come to understand it.
2. Food animals generally do not deserve anything per say, and it goes both ways for both good or bad. Of course this is my own subjective opinion. They do deserve at the very least to be treated with some form of kindness up until they are ready to be slaughtered for our nourishment and to have their other parts used for whatever else they can be used for. One of the reasons as I mentioned elsewhere that I only drink milk that comes from farms with a confirmed pasture time grazing over over 6 months a year. I would purchase meat only from free roam animals, but that is too expensive for me so I have to compromise for now until I am rich person guy to be able to do that sort of thing.
3.
I hope the following scenario is not a fallacy but, lets say we are put into the " eat a human or die scenario ". You know, the justification for cannibalism scenario that is oh so famous. You are stuck on a mountain and freezing to death and know your going to die of starvation as you are starving to death and are low on energy etc. Now imagine you have two people with you. One is an adult male who is nearly dead and another is a young child that you know if you could find food for, they would live along with you, but the same goes for the adult too. There is two options in your mind in this hopeless situation. All three of you starve to death, or you take the ultimate moral sacrifice and kill someone and two of you get to live.
Which one dies? the child or the adult? I would certainly choose the adult. There is something in my morality that I am not sure what to call it that gives young children or the youth a special plead privilege for having more of a right to live.
4.
1. Any age past what would be considered to be the animals maturity point. Example: Humans is generally viewed as 18-21 or so. Once a creature is past the point of maturity is when it has loved long enough. Be it out in a field or in one of those large mega camps or holding cells that is one of the primary concern for Vegans as I have come to understand it.
2. Food animals generally do not deserve anything per say, and it goes both ways for both good or bad. Of course this is my own subjective opinion. They do deserve at the very least to be treated with some form of kindness up until they are ready to be slaughtered for our nourishment and to have their other parts used for whatever else they can be used for. One of the reasons as I mentioned elsewhere that I only drink milk that comes from farms with a confirmed pasture time grazing over over 6 months a year. I would purchase meat only from free roam animals, but that is too expensive for me so I have to compromise for now until I am rich person guy to be able to do that sort of thing.
3.
- I suppose its just some sort of irrational emotional response like I said before.what has age got to do with humane or inhumane?
I hope the following scenario is not a fallacy but, lets say we are put into the " eat a human or die scenario ". You know, the justification for cannibalism scenario that is oh so famous. You are stuck on a mountain and freezing to death and know your going to die of starvation as you are starving to death and are low on energy etc. Now imagine you have two people with you. One is an adult male who is nearly dead and another is a young child that you know if you could find food for, they would live along with you, but the same goes for the adult too. There is two options in your mind in this hopeless situation. All three of you starve to death, or you take the ultimate moral sacrifice and kill someone and two of you get to live.
Which one dies? the child or the adult? I would certainly choose the adult. There is something in my morality that I am not sure what to call it that gives young children or the youth a special plead privilege for having more of a right to live.
4.
I did not know that.Do you realize that the average age of a slaughtered chicken is between 30 days and 6 months? Pigs are slaughtered between 1.5 - 1 year. Seems like they all are babies when slaughtered.
We are all born Atheists, everyone of us. We are born without the Shackles of theism arresting our minds. It is not until we are poisoned by the fears and delusions of others that we become trapped in the psychopathic dream world of theism.