sentient

[Twizelby]

So I keep running into an intellectual problem. It comes from no desire to consume any one product but more of a consistent morality question.

1. I work in a retail grocery store in the US. sometimes I have to go to the back of the fish section and see live crabs and lobsters in the back. I would be lying if I said I don't feel mortified by seeing these creatures bubbling at the mouth in boxes and clamoring around. Is this feeling justified? Are these animals sentient? Forget, for a moment, the environmental impact, is there a justification for not comsuming them.

2. bugs. While I don't care about honey, and find nothing lacking in a diet that does not consume products from bugs/insects, I have a hard time justifying that I don't consume these products. That being said I don't like the idea of killing or harming these creatures for kicks. Anyway, In the interest of learning, is there something you find compelling about not consuming these products? from the studies I have read I am confused as to whether or not these creatures writhe because of programmed reaction similar to plants, or if they have every right to life as any other creature.

[brimstoneSalad]

I would be lying if I said I don't feel mortified by seeing these creatures bubbling at the mouth in boxes and clamoring around. Is this feeling justified? Are these animals sentient? Forget, for a moment, the environmental impact, is there a justification for not comsuming them.

Yes, they are highly sentient.

Here's a rule of thumb: If it's motile (that is, moving around its environment and not just twitching or shifting in place), and you can see it with the naked eye, it's sentient.

Slime molds are a very interesting case, and bear discussion.
Visible fish and arthropods aren't interesting at all; they're far, far into the domain of sentient (not even remotely in the gray area).

from the studies I have read I am confused as to whether or not these creatures writhe because of programmed reaction similar to plants, or if they have every right to life as any other creature.

Bugs are not plants. If you can see them, they're sentient. I don't want to imply anything about invisible mites that only have a few neurons and may compete with large protists. But if you can see it with your eye, it's sentient.

That said, not all sentient things have equal value. And the concept of natural "rights" isn't necessarily useful or coherent.

[Twizelby]

I am more interested in the differentiation between ganglia and a more complex nervous system. http://www.utilitarian-essays.com/insec ... l#section6
I fully realize that bugs are not plants but the analogy I was trying to make was survivability. In this case I think that the Descartes model of sentience is questionable. Evolution and motility does not necessarily indicate sentience. I bring it up because the question I raised was offered up in debate and I really had no answer. I have read several essays both for and against. While the nervous system of bugs and crabs is rudimentary, and we have nothing to compare it to, I prefer to be on the side of caution. I do however want a better answer. Any information is greatly appreciated.

[Twizelby]

I found the other one http://relaximanentomologist.tumblr.com ... -feel-pain

[brimstoneSalad]

Evolution and motility does not necessarily indicate sentience.

No, but it makes it overwhelmingly probable. I was trying to give you a more general rule that doesn't require case by case testing.

Response to operant conditioning, however, does indicate sentience, and large (small by our standards) insects are responsive.

I have not read of any insects tested that have failed to respond to operant conditioning, but at the same time testing has been highly limited. I would put money on any insect that I can see from a meter away and that moves around its environment.

I would not bet on Dicopomorpha echmepterygis being sentient, or anything in the generally invisible-to-the-naked-eye category.