Philosophical Vegan Forum

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This user is the confirmed troll bigbossomni aka pyrobotnik (and has since invented another character as well), notorious for making up stories of extremists and mysterious health problems to discredit veganism. Everything he or she says should be assumed to be pure fiction.


Hello again. As I mentioned in the intro forum I have twins both are 20 son and daughter. My daughter went vegan about a year ago. She was always the more sensitive between the 2 kids. She has hunted before with me she bagged a few elk in her childhood. But yes eventually she came out to us as a vegan to a the family and of course we have no issue because she's an adult and she's free to do as she wishes. But only in the last 5 or 6 months has she shown dissent towards us for not following suit into her changes. She doesn't live with me and even If she did I'd never give her flak for being vegan. It's simply a non issue to me. So for christmas I have family and friends over and cook for everyone. I even make sure when cooking for her to not use animal products. But being distracted by having 15+ people in my house I accidentally cook some green beans on a pan that had meat on it. She really let loose on me claiming it's my hunting that cause my wifes brain aneurysm. Then she said she was done with her "carnist" family. Upon looking that up it seems to be a slur for non vegan. So my question is what do I do? She doesn't live with me and when she visits I cater to her needs. Is this common? How do you deal with your non vegan family? I'd rather not loose my daughter over something that's a non issue.

Based on how you're talking about it, your problem may be that you're saying it's a non-issue and you're not receptive to her feelings.

You have your experience and memories of the circumstances, and I'm sure she has her own and in them she likely feels ignored or patronized (Most of us here have probably experienced that).
You're right to come here, because if you can understand her perspective better and communicate with her you can probably fix the issue pretty easily.

Can you think of anything you see a people doing that you consider deeply unethical, but that wouldn't stop you from being friends with them?

For example, what if some close friends were committing tax evasion?

Compare:
Scenario A: You tried to discuss your misgivings with them and get them to come clean and do their part as citizens, but they brushed it off as some non-issue like it's a personal choice and just kind of scoffed at you for being so silly as to pay your taxes.
Scenario B: You discussed your misgivings and they took you seriously and considered what you had to say, and explained that their evasion wasn't for selfishness but because they have some kind of libertarian belief and are protesting something the government is doing with their money; that they recognized your beliefs and ethical concerns, but had a different view.

While there might be serious differences of opinion in Scenario B, there's a level of respect there that doesn't exist in Scenario A.

Hi, deadeye68:

I'm vegan and I have a huge family (two brothers, two sisters and two nephews) that eat meat (although my brother is a vegetarian). I love them very much and go see them once a year (unfortunately I live in the other corner of the world). In my opinion, if there is anything that could change your daughter's mind is telling her to consider how are her actions helping animals in any real way. This will also help you understand better her position, does she think you and your family are going to change your position on veganism because of this or is it simply that she doesn't want to spent time with non-vegans?
If the answer is the second, you can point to her that that kind of attitude is not really helping animals, but rather helping extend the idea that veganism is a extreme position and that all vegans are crazy. About the topic of Christmas meals I think the best is to simply let her cook herself while staying with you, that's what I do when I go visiting my parents.
If she answers that she's trying to change your mind, I don't think there is much you can do. You can try tell her that you're never going to change your mind because of what she's doing, but maybe she thinks your other sons will or that you will eventually even if you don't admit it.
Another possibility is that maybe your house is too unbearable for your daughter (maybe you have hunt trophies displayed?). If that's the case you could propose to celebrate Christmas at your daughter's home or one of your sons'.
In any case, I know cases of people that only want to interact with vegans. I do not like it, but they have the right to do so. So does your daughter.

I hope you and your daughter reunite. Thank you

The other ideas are good, but I would avoid this one:

esquizofrenico wrote: ↑Wed Feb 21, 2018 2:32 amIn my opinion, if there is anything that could change your daughter's mind is telling her to consider how are her actions helping animals in any real way. This will also help you understand better her position, does she think you and your family are going to change your position on veganism because of this or is it simply that she doesn't want to spent time with non-vegans?
If the answer is the second, you can point to her that that kind of attitude is not really helping animals, but rather helping extend the idea that veganism is a extreme position and that all vegans are crazy.

This is of course true, but it may come off as confrontational at a time where it's crucial to listen. It's also very easy to make a mistake in explaining it (particularly without a very strong grasp of the underlying moral philosophy), and that could make matters much worse with a slip of the tongue.

esquizofrenico wrote: ↑Wed Feb 21, 2018 2:32 amYou can try tell her that you're never going to change your mind because of what she's doing,

That might also make things worse, and reinforce the notion that she probably has that he's closed minded. It's important to be open minded, even if he doesn't think he'll ever change.

It sounds as if she is relatively new to veganism and assuming that is true I think perhaps the best thing you can do is just avoid the topic for now and see whether she commits to the lifestyle longer term. Most people that start vegan diets end up giving up on it in some way.

And even if she sticks with the lifestyle she may walk down from here more extreme position on it.

thanks for the replies I'll answer you all

brimstone- I would never tell her it's a non issue. It certainly is an issue to her. I'm always very careful how to speak to her and when she would come over I was always very accommodating. To answer your moral question I'd simply tell me friend to not get caught. The IRS seems like a group of people you don't want to piss off.

esquizofrencio-It seems to be the second case. She seems to not want to interact with any non vegans. At the holiday meal it did seem she was trying to change everyone's minds about their various eating habits. Yes when I hunt I make mounts and sell them online but I'm very accommodating and I put the ones I'm working on in my room so she won't see them. I just hope this anger is a phase because she hasn't spoken to me or her brother since that night. I speak to one of her friends from time to time so I at least know shes ok. I am worried she's thinking of leaving her job to pursue "activism" full time. As I have been told by her friend.

Carnap- Yeah we avoid the topic since she has decided not to answer my calls anymore sadly. Yes I have heard about 70% of vegans end up returning to eating some form of meat.

Hi there,
I am a vegan daughter in a non-vegan family, so maybe I can provide some insight. Although your situation is kinda different from mine, so that might just be irrelevant.

Your daughter is twenty, and while she has been vegan a year, it's not that long relative to the rest of her life. When people first have a major shift in their belief system, especially when they are young, I think they are likely to be very passionate about it at first. Due to her passion, she has probably done a lot of research about veganism, and she may have been influenced by more extreme vegans on the Internet who say pretty bad things about non-vegans... As a relatively new vegan, she also probably sees veganism as a very important moral issue, and you doing something she perceives as immoral probably bothers her personally, because it challenges your character in her eyes.

I cannot know this, but based on how you refer to your daughter, you seem to be respectful and genuinely caring of her, which is a very important thing. I think that you should definitely keep doing that, despite feeling frustrated, because that will give her no reason besides you eating meat to be upset with you. You probably already know to keep being respectful of your daughter, though.

I am honestly not really sure what you can do to change how she feels about you. Veganism is a moral issue that people can feel very strongly about. I think that, with time, your daughter will likely become more moderate about it. I am not as "extreme" as the first year when I went vegan... Just always stay on her side, and she will probably come through. Maybe you can explicitly let her know that you completely respect the fact that she is vegan and never intentionally give her flak about it.

Also, don't get defensive about it. For example, at the party where you accidentally cooked the beans with meat, you should apologize in the moment instead of saying something like, "I have to worry about a bunch of people, and I can't always remember to make sure your food is vegan." I'm not saying you did that, I'm just saying that you shouldn't. Here's the thing... when you're vegan, you often don't have a lot of options at family dinners if you're the only vegan there, and when something that should be vegan isn't, that can be really frustrating. How many options did she have at the family dinner? She might've felt excluded because there wasn't much for her to eat there, and then she got mad at you because you created that situation. So how did you react when she was upset and said those things? Just a reminder to not respond angrily or defensively.

Did something else happen that could've led to her not responding to your calls, or did it just come out of nowhere?

deadeye68 wrote: ↑Wed Feb 21, 2018 12:02 pm brimstone- I would never tell her it's a non issue. It certainly is an issue to her. I'm always very careful how to speak to her and when she would come over I was always very accommodating.

Not very many people are that good of actors, though, to completely hide their feelings.
If you feel it's a non-issue, she is very likely picking that up through subtle verbal and non-verbal cues.

If you really believe veganism is stupid, without any rational merit, and a purely emotional reaction, then that will come through.
You can't just respect her and think those things about something she believes in deeply... because it's not possible to fully respect somebody when you think that person is being ridiculous. You can go through the motions and comply with her wishes whatever they are, but it will be obvious to somebody good at picking up on that.

If you're reacting to her going vegan in the same way you'd react to her telling you she converted to some weird religion that believe there are leprechauns running around and that she has to act in certain ways to appease them (ways that are obviously inconveniencing you), then you're going about this wrong. It's not whether you bend over backwards to do what she wants, it's that you acknowledge her beliefs have merit and don't write them off as emotional whim.

deadeye68 wrote: ↑Wed Feb 21, 2018 12:02 pmTo answer your moral question I'd simply tell me friend to not get caught. The IRS seems like a group of people you don't want to piss off.

You completely missed the point of the question, though.
It's to put yourself in her shoes; if you don't care about tax evasion at all, then that's not the right analogy for you. You need to imagine an analogy that's applicable to you.

I'm saying try to find something you DO care about.

If you don't care about anything at all, then it will be impossible for you to understand what your daughter is feeling and relate to her.

Do you identify as a nihilist?

If you genuinely care about anything outside your family, then you can imagine a situation where you find out somebody does something you don't agree with and how you'd feel about it.

Do you strongly disapprove of terrorism?

If so, imagine your friends confided in you that they're radical Islamists funding terrorism abroad by donating money to the cause. They assure you it's just attacks in other countries, there's no risk to you so it should be a non-issue for you remaining friends. How do you feel about that? Are you staying friends with them and giving them advice? Are you cutting them off? Or maybe are you trying to talk them out of it?

You can imagine a couple outcomes of discussing it:

A. They are unresponsive and say it should be a non-issue because it doesn't affect you, and don't want to talk about it and brush it off, just saying you should respect their choices for what to do with their own money.
B. They engage with your seriously about your ethical concerns with them paying to murder people, and discuss the theology of their cause showing that they really respect your intelligence and take your concerns seriously and you reach an impasse where you can't prove their god doesn't exist, and they can't prove that it does, so you agree to disagree from a position of mutual respect. They're still going to pay to kill people, and you still disagree with it, but they took your concerns seriously and engaged with you as though you might have something valuable to say.

If it's at all possible that your interactions with her have been more A than B, think about how that would make you feel and if you would continue to invest much into the relationship.

deadeye68 wrote: ↑Wed Feb 21, 2018 12:02 pm I am worried she's thinking of leaving her job to pursue "activism" full time. As I have been told by her friend.

Why would you worry about this? If somebody is doing what he or she loves and helping others, that can be a very happy and fulfilling life. There are careers in activism.

The only thing 100% within your power is you. If you want to fix the relationship, you should focus on what you can change, not on what she's doing wrong.

equallity- Thanks for the response. Also, thank you for not assuming anything about me. When you asked about the meal I did apologize to her and stated I'd cook up some more on another pan no problem. But she said to forget it. After everything was cooked I had bout 5 to 6 dishes she could choose from at the meal. Perhaps that was not enough. I think I may just need to give her some time and wait for her to contact me. Next time we do talk I will apologize again for the green beans mishap and make sure she knows I respect her and her choices.

brimstone- I have not stated here or to her that I think her beliefs are stupid or ridiculous. Having raised my children alone since they were 10. I'm very certain they'd be able to pick up my mental ques she'd know if I thought her beliefs were silly. She's the type who would call me out on it as well. Are you comparing not eating meat to terrorism? As a veteran I'll be honest I find that analogy in poor taste. And I can tell you right now my meat eating and hunting does not paint me as a terrorist in her eyes. Shes angry but no where near that angry to see me and her brother as some monsters. Again when did I state here she is doing anything wrong? Do you have children if I may ask? Because we always worry. Hearing she may quit her job to do activism full time from a friend of hers concerns me. but perhaps her activism will be paid for or whatnot. I think she could keep her job and do activism full time. But I'm not sure what is going on since we haven't spoken.

But thanks for the replies. I think I'm going to give her time and wait for her to open up to me. When and If she does I will let her know I care shes my child I will always care. Maybe do some activism with her. I see no harm in that.

deadeye68 wrote:equallity- Thanks for the response. Also, thank you for not assuming anything about me. When you asked about the meal I did apologize to her and stated I'd cook up some more on another pan no problem. But she said to forget it. After everything was cooked I had bout 5 to 6 dishes she could choose from at the meal. Perhaps that was not enough. I think I may just need to give her some time and wait for her to contact me. Next time we do talk I will apologize again for the green beans mishap and make sure she knows I respect her and her choices.

Based on this, it seems like you had a reasonable response. I agree, I think you should let her contact you and make that clear when you speak to her. I hope it works out!

PS The point brimstone is making is that, when you said veganism is a non-issue, he didn't know if you meant that veganism is not important or that veganism shouldn't cause tension between you and your daughter. Based on what you have said, it sounds like the latter, but you haven't explicitly said it so that's why he is making the analogies. He's making a distinction between those two things and trying to understand which is your position.
So, with regards to the IRS and terrorism analogies, he is not saying that either of those issues is the same as eating meat. He is trying to find an issue you feel similar about in some way to how your daughter feels about eating meat, so you can understand the distinction he is trying to make. With the IRS analogy, for example, scenario A, in which your friends brush off tax evasion as an unimportant non-issue, how you feel would be comparable to how your daughter would feel if she thought you were brushing off veganism as an unimportant non-issue. If you aren't against veganism, then scenario A wouldn't apply to you. It's not about the tax evasion or terrorism itself, it's about the situation.