Added Earthling Carl and OG to the wiki:
Racism in Veganism
Feedback:
Near
What is it with vegans turining into evangelical right wing Christians lately
Theo
no idea, death rattle of the alt-right?
who else you observed..?
Near
I know of a few people who have done it over the past year
Theo
yea its a weird one
Jack
I have somewhat of an idea as to why it keeps happening.
If we can admit that veganism does attract people who are looking for a system of beliefs to adopt, (these are the people who give veganism the reputation of being cult like) then it’s easy to see why someone who dives headfirst into veganism without much consideration would also do the same for another ideology like Christianity
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ᛏᚨᛒᛖᚨ
is there a context?
leonkootstra
ogmizen is going through some rough times and said some things trying to process that, and now they want to hold it against him and ostracize him so they can feel better about themselves
ᛏᚨᛒᛖᚨ
is it like 'oh boi he said black people like chicken he's a RaCiSt"
leonkootstra
to be fair he did say some outragious things, but he either doesn't actually mean it or has good reasons for it
ᛏᚨᛒᛖᚨ
any primary sources?
Hope
whats the point anyway Theo?
Racism can also be positive just like negative the wiki is like some moron wrote it
racism is in it self not bad or good
i know that black people are better at sports that makes me racist
leonkootstra
simply recognizing there are different races is already racist honestly
but at least we can all recognize formula 1 to be the superior race
Hope
racism in itself means differenciating between different races that is what creates races in the animal kingdom
that a bird thats black doesnt want to frick a bird thats white because they dislike the look
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leonkootstra
so ogmizen was true about you baiting him when you asked him about homophobic statements...
i mean seriously, what do you hope to achieve by promoting this crap? fuel the anti vegan agenda by giving them ammo?
hitler promoted meat eating, especially by their soldiers in the camps to help with dehumanizing the prisoners
look, ogmizen is a bit confused and needs to be shown the way, but he's not some evil guy and definitely shouldn't be ostracized by people
Theo
@leonkootstra (1) No, I always wanted to find a way to address shit with him, which he knew was the main reason I joined his server. I waited for months, then thought you bringing up evolution was a good time.
(2) A detailed article like that proves the opposite, more vegans are left wing than right, so us doing the detailed critique of ourselves to encourage us to do better takes the wind out of any anti-vegan hit piece.
(3) Hitler thing is interesting, if you have any more info and/or a link, will include it in the wiki article.
(4) I agree. I hope more people reach out to him as a result. And we took his section down before, happy to do so again once he pulls back from the brink.
leonkootstra
1 fair enough i guess, but since the article is written in bad faith i can't imagine him reacting to you doing any good
2 the only thing that article proves is that there are people trying to police and shame people that don't align with their political views, being right wing or even being a nationalist does not make someone a bad person. not to mention, IT'S NOT DETAILED, YOU NEED A LOT MORE SOURCES TO APPLY FOR THAT STATUS.
although i don't agree with nationalism i do agree that immigration needs a lot of work before considering people not wanting that simply bigots
although i'm center left i really hate idiots just demonizing others from the right instead of properly addressing their concerns and why they have them.
3 eternal treblinka talked about it when describing the conditions german soldiers were in while in those camps, i have no exact page number to show since i lent my copy out, but since the whole book is interesting i highly recommend reading it
4 the article is on him is a hit piece, not a piece on someone who lost his way and needs some guidance
overall i really don't get an impression that this is actually meant to do any good, just to shame and distance yourself from the people you don't agree with
also, "It's unclear whether homophobia helped smooth his way into becoming a jewish hating christian fundimentalist, but it's a strong feature now"
is simply wrong, and i'm not just talking about that typo (how hard is it to do spellcheck?)
he is not an actual homophobe, he only started ranting about it after the gay pride left the beach polluted and full of waste, although there is some personal crap factoring in it too i can garantee you he doesn't actually hate gays
Theo
1) I asked politely a serious and important question, he over-reacted in a hostile manner like many times before and then shut down communication.
2) Sorry you feel that way, was mine and Brim's best attempt at exploring all aspects to how veganism interplays with different cultures. Some sections are just markers or cliff-notes to be filled in later, but none of it was written in bad faith. You're welcome to sign up and make improvements yourself and by coming to a consensus through discussion on the forum.
3) Thanks, much appreciated.
4) Every time he's come on video the last few months he's been obsessed with talking about gay sex and how gay people are the embodiment of sin compared to normal straight couples. The same way Jewish people are vilified as opposite to pure Christians.
If you're trying to downplay that by saying there's no hatred yet, the same way someone takes on board racist talking points before they become hateful, I don't think that's okay.
leonkootstra
like i said, in a lot of ways he's lost his way and needs someone to rant about, it is not to be taken seriously and when confronted he has said he doesn't actually stand behind that. for instance he has clarified that he meant all non-reproductive sex with sodomy and has nothing against gays a while ago.
and again, the way you go about it is highly counterproductive.
as for the jews, i can't say i'm a fan of them considering to what they're doing to the palestinians.
comparing israel to the nazi government is actually pretty valid, they might not have camps, but they do have ghettos that are eerily similar.
i admit pretty much everything else is either conspiracy theory or jokes that got out of hand
Theo
I explicitly offered him that option as less bad justification but still bad, he explicitly rejected it, he now thinks just accepting who you are (being prideful) if you're gay is sinful.
OG: Sodomy is a sin, pride is a sin, gay pride is definitely a sin right, pride is the worst sin of all the sins and that gay pride, right well I mean once you really understand what Christianity is aiming at you see just how perfectly antithetical to Christianity all of this sort of stuff is.
Theo: I thought you'd appreciate the honesty of not pussy footing around, just curious from your stream. You said you think sodomy is a sin, so is your position that gay people having a relationship is fine just not the sex i.e. "hate the sin, love the sinner."? And why if so do you think that theology makes sense is all? Don't need to answer.
OG:
1. Its not that I think sodomy is a sin, it is a sin. According to the bible, not me.
2. No that is not my position
3. That would not be an application of 'hate the sin, love the sinner', and even if it was, Im not sure thats even a legit christian idea
its certainly not biblical as far as I know
Re: "as for the jews, I can't say I'm a fan of them." That's dumb and racist, you wouldn't accept it if it was "as for the whites I can't say I'm a fan of them for what they did to the jews." There are more leftwing Jews internationally against the Israeli government than right wing, it's been one shit historical circumstance after another that has lead to the radicalization of that region, starting with colonial Britain and France's failure, then Hitler's attempted extermination, etc.
Refuseniks – Kilnaboy
leonkootstra
although i admit i shouldn't compare jews directly for the actions of the israeli government, most jews do stand behind it and will call you an anti semite for criticizing it.
although that mostly stems from a pavlovian response to bullshit criticism, the fact is that due to enabling bad behavior the government is allowed to do the most insane shit imaginable. if you look at the criticisms of israel from the west you'll notice it's only jews that are allowed to do that without being labeled anti semitic, and lots of times not even that. bernie sanders is labeled as anti semitic for criticizing israel, and he's a jew.
i would also appreciate it if you didn't make this into a left wing/right wing issue. what is good and what is bad is separate from that
Theo
It is primarily a right wing issue, the far-right love to both use racism and pretend to be victims of it just like the great replacement conspiracy:
The Intercept - Benjamin Netanyahu Is Fine With Anti-Semites — as Long as They Support Israel
And I'm going to need a study showing most Jewish people support Israeli oppression of Palestinians.
But regardless it wouldn't make a difference if you could point to a few religious or historic cultural ideas you don't like which are always in flux, it's never a reason to say you don't like a whole race or group of races. And OG is doing that by buying into a bunch of conspiracies, he's seeing a few business people in different industries you can identify as Ashkanazi Jewish and pinning all the things he doesn't like against them believing they're this majority responsible for colluding against him.
leonkootstra
and you honestly think the left is innocent?
do you not think that the left is so guilt ridden by the holocaust that any criticism is considered anti semitic by them?
i admit i don't have a study, but you know just as well as i do that criticism of israel is almost always met with accusations of anti semitism.
can you honestly not see there's more than just left/right wing shit going on?
as for religious ideas, from the start they consider themselves 'god's chosen people', you can't see any similarities to what the nazis thought there?
netanyahu has expressed those ideas regarding the topic on how to treat non jews too, and a lot of the government is very jewish orthodox aka believing in that shit too.
and yeah, as long as there are real anti semites netanyahu can weaponize it, one of the ways is by making people fearful instead of actually listening to criticism
something the left has been more than willing to provide
as for og, like i said he has lost his way a bit, but he's not serious about it and is still finding his way, the crap you're pulling will only make people more set in their ways though
really, you should learn some real world psychology, learn how people actually think, why they think it and how they react to criticism
Theo
Re: "you honestly think the left is innocent?" "any criticism is considered anti semitic by them?"
No and no, the BDS movement mainly leftwing students, electronic intifada - leftwing media, the young turks - leftwing pro-palestinian, palestinian solidarity networks - leftwing, solidarity almonds to support palestinians - leftwing, palestinian animal league - leftwing charity, etc. etc.
Support for Palestine is almost interely from the far-left to the centre, with a small exception of reactionaires and neo-nazis.
OG is getting worse and worse, at some point it's useful to put up a warning signal. People had a go at me for simply quoting JackGreen, look where he is now, full on neo-nazi who defends sending parcel bombs to leftist public figures and puts out the same propaganda that mass shooters used as justification for their atrocities.
leonkootstra
again, do you honestly think your actions are not making it worse?
Theo
No, he's showed all the signs for months of slipping from ancap ideology to fascism, himself and the people around him haven't been able to stop that, so it's worth risking a little bit of shaming to get him conscious of the road he's on and more people involved in talking to him.
leonkootstra
do you honestly think shaming does that?
are you that devoid of reason?
do you think punching nazis is a good thing or something?
seriously, you should stop with your hero fantasies and grow up
Theo
@leonkootstra nowhere did I say shaming was a positive force in the world, I said it's worth risking a little bit of shaming i.e. it's worth risking that he will feel some shame or that some people will shame him, if simply quoting him helps get more people involved in talking to him. I don't think it's good that once someone goes off the rails we start to tiptoe really lightly around them, that method was tried for months, it hasn't worked, so now it's anyone from the public's chance who cares and wasn't previously aware.
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