Philosophical Vegan Forum

Hi there,

I am facing an issue at the moment and don't know what to do. Friends of mine will get married this year and they are planning to celebrate at a local butcher's event location.

I don't know the details yet, but somehow this idea disgusts me so much. I mean: I am very happy for the 2 of them, it is nice they get married. But celebrating at a butcher's place??? They have acted non-vegan-friendly (if you ask me also disrespectful) already before. Like: bringing non-vegan cake for themselves when they came over (and no vegan cake for my family) and when they celebrate birthdays they don't take care there is vegan food available at the places they choose. I mean: I don't expect to feast, I don't mind eating less. But this butcher-place drives me nuts in a way...How can I enjoy a party, when I know the background of the place is a bloody one? I also would not join anyone who wants to go to Mc Donalds or Burger King. The point is: I don't mind as much about not eating for half a day, I could do that in advance or afterwards, although it feels bad. But since I am having a family I cannot expect my children not to eat for half a day. And since the butcher also offers catering I am pretty sure they ordered it. (No info yet). Of course they might also be able to create vegan meals, but somehow I don't want to trust a butcher. I guess it is more of the type of mixing butter or bacon in things. What would you do?

I cannot really prepare food to bring with us, since the celebration means we would have to travel there for the weekend. Also I don't know if it is allowed to bring your own food.

Thanks in advance, every suggestion or idea is appreciated.

@NoOrdninaryWords Has the event’s location already been booked? Maybe you can convince your friend (or whoever the organizer is) to change the venue to something more friendly toward people of different diets.

If not possible, try asking the caterer if they make vegan food. It could be as simple as having salad bar where you can mix and match vegetables, proteins, and dressing at your own volition. You and your family have to eat after all.

Well, I am pretty sure if I tried to convince them to find another venue, they would probably feel extremely offended and end the friendship.They are not super close friends, but once in a while seeing them is nice and they are generally nice people. But as you notice also very different regarding certain values. It is already booked and the butcher is the owner of that place and the caterer. The town is also a small one so I assume there are not a lot of venues.

So would you actually attend even if everything is provided by the butcher who gets paid for it? I am having some moral problems with that. On the other hand it is maybe comparable with an omnivorous restaurant. Is a butcher worse than a restaurant owner who offers meat? I am a bit angry at myself for not just being happy for the couple who gets married, but somehow I can't just forget about these things.

NoOrdninaryWords wrote: ↑Sun Mar 10, 2019 7:05 pm I am very happy for the 2 of them, it is nice they get married.

What's so great about that? I understand why you would be happy that they met someone and fell in love, but why be happy because they are getting married?

NoOrdninaryWords wrote: ↑Sun Mar 10, 2019 7:05 pmBut celebrating at a butcher's place???

Are you one of their closest friends? If so, I consider it a bit of a slap in the face.

I would probably go if I thought I would have fun but given the circumstances there is no way I could enjoy myself at that location. It would be a no thanks from me unless they changed to a more vegan friendly venue.

Jebus wrote: ↑Mon Mar 11, 2019 9:11 am What's so great about that? I understand why you would be happy that they met someone and fell in love, but why be happy because they are getting married?

Are you one of their closest friends? If so, I consider it a bit of a slap in the face.

I would probably go if I thought I would have fun but given the circumstances there is no way I could enjoy myself at that location. It would be a no thanks from me unless they changed to a more vegan friendly venue.

Thank you for your opinion. Well I know for them it is a big thing to get married and they want to celebrate this step with family and friends. So that's why I would like to be happy for them without any issues. As I wrote, I am not a close friend (but we have been knowing each other for 9 years now) and for me it feels very bad. I guess they cannot really understand how important it is to me to be vegan. When they once brought their own non-vegan cake to our place and offered us to keep the rest of it I really had to explain nobody will eat it if we keep it. A bit weird if you ask me.

Yeah, probably I will also say no thanks, but there are also a few other circumstances, like that we would have to spend the whole weekend there etc.. But somehow I feel I am reacting a bit intolerant. On the other hand: is tolerance of slaughter a good thing??? I think clearly not.

I feel I will probably also not enjoy it...I mean I am already pondering about this so much and there are still a few months to go.

NoOrdninaryWords wrote: ↑Mon Mar 11, 2019 9:06 am Well, I am pretty sure if I tried to convince them to find another venue, they would probably feel extremely offended and end the friendship.

This statement makes me question if your friendship will endure.

NoOrdninaryWords wrote: ↑Mon Mar 11, 2019 9:06 am So would you actually attend even if everything is provided by the butcher who gets paid for it? I am having some moral problems with that.

Only if I could wager that I may influence enough people to reduce their animal product consumption, or help promote the caterer’s vegan dishes. Why not show the caterer there’s a demand for vegan food? Similarly, if a non-vegan company offers a vegan burger, why not support that company by increasing the products’ market share and therefore help veganism reach a wider audience? There may also be good chance to have some interesting discussion with people and have them think about their ethical choices.

Obviously, if they’re only serving BBQ or something like that, then I wouldn’t bother attending.

NoOrdninaryWords wrote: ↑Mon Mar 11, 2019 9:06 am Is a butcher worse than a restaurant owner who offers meat?

Probably, because restaurant owners are more inclined to serve vegan food. But they’re just farther along in the production line (they may purchase their meat directly from butcher shops). They both share group culpability in having a net negative effect on animal welfare.

I wouldn’t attend if there’s nothing for you to eat. If your friend respects you and your ethics (which you indicated they do not) then they will be understanding of your absence. Maybe send a card congratulating them on their engagement.

Lay Vegan wrote: ↑Mon Mar 11, 2019 5:44 pm

NoOrdninaryWords wrote: ↑Mon Mar 11, 2019 9:06 am Well, I am pretty sure if I tried to convince them to find another venue, they would probably feel extremely offended and end the friendship.

This statement makes me question if your friendship will endure.

Yeah, I don't know. I think it is probably not a nice idea to criticize people who are busy with organizing a big event and did generally a nice thing: inviting to it. I somehow feel it might be more clever to keep this to myself and just tell another reason why we can't attend. It is not honest, I know. I enjoy hanging out with them occasionally, but I've always sensed we have different values which made me keep them a bit distanced.

Lay Vegan wrote: ↑Mon Mar 11, 2019 5:44 pm

NoOrdninaryWords wrote: ↑Mon Mar 11, 2019 9:06 am So would you actually attend even if everything is provided by the butcher who gets paid for it? I am having some moral problems with that.

Lay Vegan wrote: ↑Mon Mar 11, 2019 5:44 pm Only if I could wager that I may influence enough people to reduce their animal product consumption, or help promote the caterer’s vegan dishes. Why not show the caterer there’s a demand for vegan food? Similarly, if a non-vegan company offers a vegan burger, why not support that company by increasing the products’ market share and therefore help veganism reach a wider audience? There may also be good chance to have some interesting discussion with people and have them think about their ethical choices.

Obviously, if they’re only serving BBQ or something like that, then I wouldn’t bother attending.

Well, I am pretty sure I won't influence anyone there. I did influence quite many people, but only people who had been more open and understanding. Of course it is a good idea to influence the caterer, but somehow I feel butcher + veganism don't go well together. For example I would also not buy a vegan sausage made by a butcher, I would buy it from a vegan or at least vegetarian company instead. I do sometimes eat at restaurants though, which also offer meat, but usually I prefer to pick veg places instead. Somehow I am just too tired for these discussions. I've had these sooo often in my life and I have been offended / bullied also, because I am vegan (without judging anyone for their choice to consume animal products). Often these discussions are one-sided and meat-eaters just ask you so you explain yourself instead of showing real interest. That's my experience and I prefer not to have these talks while sitting at a table & eating.

Lay Vegan wrote: ↑Mon Mar 11, 2019 5:44 pm

NoOrdninaryWords wrote: ↑Mon Mar 11, 2019 9:06 am Is a butcher worse than a restaurant owner who offers meat?

Lay Vegan wrote: ↑Mon Mar 11, 2019 5:44 pm Probably, because restaurant owners are more inclined to serve vegan food. But they’re just farther along in the production line (they may purchase their meat directly from butcher shops). They both share group culpability in having a net negative effect on animal welfare.

I wouldn’t attend if there’s nothing for you to eat. If your friend respects you and your ethics (which you indicated they do not) then they will be understanding of your absence. Maybe send a card congratulating them on their engagement.

It comes a bit worse now: so this friend showed up spontaneously yesterday to give us their invitation card personally (before he sent basic infos online), which was very nice of him of course. But so he just said "You will find something to eat", but it sounded more as if we are the ones to find out, not as if he already asked the butcher or something. I could not really respond anything, because I feel he also just isn't aware of the fact things which look vegan can still contain animal products (like potatoes mixed with butter, veggies cooked in meat broth etc.). My partner just responded we will find out...

I am not sure yet if I want to contact that butcher and ask....I probably will so I can just find out how experienced or open he is regarding veganism. I am quite sure there has not been much demand, since it is really a small town. But who knows. I am wondering if it is more clever to ask about allergens instead of telling we're vegan. On the other hand the holiday apartment we would stay at is very close to the venue, so maybe we could just skip the dinner part and have dinner there, but I guess this would be a bit rude in a way.

To be clear... are we talking about you spending your money and time (and your family's time) to travel and stay somewhere to attend an event you probably won't enjoy for acquaintances you aren't very close with and who have been disrespectful to you in the past?

I have no idea why you're going at all. Like you said, small town and butcher being the case, you're unlikely to influence them. This isn't a normal restaurant.

I would not ask them to change anything or say it has anything to do with the venue, but you probably shouldn't put yourself through this.
In the most naive sense you can say it's "selfish" to not go, since it's doing what you want and not what the other party asked for, but that does NOT make it bad to not go. In fact it's probably bad TO go.
The negative consequences of not going are trivial, maybe even non-existent since they're also wasting money too if you DO go. It's not always a good thing to accept and exchange unwanted gifts.
This was a good clip that explains the bad economics of the whole endeavor:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6sEkeEFH7uw
The same applies to "gifts" of event invitations. It's not free, and if you don't want to go you shouldn't.

When you accept things like this, it's lose-lose.

I'd say make some other plans, then call and tell them that your plans have changed and you can't go because you have something else you're doing at that time. Not a lie since you do now literally have something scheduled.

Look at it from their perspectives:
I would not want somebody accepting my invitation to something he or she really didn't want to go to and just pretending to be OK with it. Would you?
The idea that we're subjecting everybody we know to a silent torture with our unwanted attempts at kindness is terrible. Wouldn't you rather people just opt out of your invitation rather than you causing them to suffer AND waste your money doing it?