Philosophical Vegan Forum

I don't really understand how owning cats can be considered vegan. Veganism is based on the idea that owning animals, even if we think consequences will be good, is wrong, right?
Besides, like, if you actually care about reducing animal suffering, how can you take care of and feed that vicious and blood-thirsty animal that can only survive by violently killing smaller animals? And that will hunt and kill smaller animals for fun even when it's not hungry?

teo123 wrote: ↑Mon Apr 01, 2019 1:40 pm I don't really understand how owning cats can be considered vegan. Veganism is based on the idea that owning animals, even if we think consequences will be good, is wrong, right?
Besides, like, if you actually care about reducing animal suffering, how can you take care of and feed that vicious and blood-thirsty animal that can only survive by violently killing smaller animals? And that will hunt and kill smaller animals for fun even when it's not hungry?

Teo, this is a different discussion. I'll split this and start a new thread.

Purchasing a bred cat is really a shitty thing to do. Cat "ownership" is only moral if the following three criteria are met.... and which I doubt are met in 99.999% of "cat ownership" cases.

The cat in question was "rescued" from a shelter or a shitty street life.
The cat stays indoors or wears a bell when outdoors.
The cat is fed a properly planned supplemented vegan diet.

Jebus wrote: ↑Mon Apr 01, 2019 2:17 pm The cat in question was "rescued" from a shelter or a shitty street life.
The cat stays indoors or wears a bell when outdoors.
The cat is fed a properly planned supplemented vegan diet.

Don't forget having the cat spayed/neutered.

I think you make an interesting point with rescuing cats from outdoors. There is a serious problem with feral cat populations, which fucks over ecosystems, along with having thousands of cute kittens be killed by cars. Going to the pet store to adopt one isn't helping the issue. Of course, rescuing a cat from outdoors isn't a major thing to do, but I think it'd be better than adopting.

I'd suggest creating government-funded TNR programs at the municipal level, since right now most TNR groups are small non-profit organizations who rely on donations.

I'd like to dismantle your arguments, and reflecting each. I kinda feel myself called out on this.


For theo 123:

1. Owning an animal
You don't own an animal, hence I used the expression "caretaker" or "caregiver". Never stated otherwise. Meanwhile I do say "my cat" even tho this is a grammatical form only. I have a family, a father, a partner, a sister too, still doesn't own them however they are still mine.

2. Cats are cruel
Nowaday cats and dogs are results of long term domesticating, we humans knowingly breed them to have some traits and lack of other ones making them largely dependant from us. Nota bene: they are doing well to be reintroduced to the wild: wildcats, dingos.

3. Cats are vicious
This is loaded adjective, and can be only viewed from human perspective. Feels like -and I hope I am wrong and I will happily beg for your pardon- you just want to use emotions to jump for an already made judgement here From this point all carnivore, omnivore is blood thirsty, this is their role. This behaviour can be largely suppress with feeding and some of them doing the good ol actor at the "survivor of the fittest" principle. I do believe you are not want to take out this role from carnivore wild animals - on the base of we are vegans. Their hunt serves natural selection. We have spiders too, to reduce the numbers of mosquitoes, etc, the cats are catching mice. And bugs. I hope you don't want to take out the fly from the web.


To Jebus:
1. I disagree on cat should wear bells. To support my disagreement I'd like to raise three points: 1a) I did saw a successful hunter cat with a bell. On the other hand 1b) I know a cat got hooked and suffocated by the collar in the wild. Thirdly, 1c) I don't think animals should wear anything at all, because that is a form of denying their natural integrity and a symbol of ownership over them. Therefore I think having a cat collar is unjustified, harmful and ineffective - and I think each one of these alone is sufficient to raise at least concerns against collar, but this three together seem to me pretty convincing.

We have basically an agreement on other points. All of OUR cats are wild rescue (one's family was eaten by a fox and were left alone, the other was rescued from a neglecting owner, whose literal job was buying any types, ages and forms of dogs in Hungary and selling them in Italy) - and I think that is a way to go. They are outside daytime - they were born outside. They neutered / spayed (despite the fact this contradict with 1c) ). Also if you have the conditions cats should be on a regulated, checked, supplemented plant based diet.

Regarding animals and eating I do object to use the word "vegan". (these animal foods basically animal tested even with use + these are not based on the animal moral believes. Only humans can be consciously participate in an ethical movement)


To Red:
I do believe also, neuter (chipped at ear) and release is a way to go. Our ones was unable to survive alone, (one got 35% chance, the other 50 from the vet at the first evaluation, they had life threatening conditions) so we took into the family. I do second your suggestion on the social structures of addressing the wild feline population.

+one more a bit wider point. I disagree to state that vegan is a binary value. "this or that activity is not vegan"

Veganism is ant ethical movement for me, addressing moral issues, and supporting the personal participation on the optimum level of the one. Veganism is not the answer but the question itself.

Strictly for me the structure "I am vegan", means I am aware of this question, and I am doing my best to find personal answers, while "I am a vegan" means I am a member of a movement, and I use personal influence TOO to raise awareness regarding the question. Maybe it is unnecessary to make difference but I feel it make more sense in languages which attribute different lexical form to an adjective or to a noun

We should be more inclusive, and we should realize that being vegan means different for a middle class USA youtuber in 2019, an uneployed single mother in the seventies in the DDR, or a conscripted soldier in black Africa in 2030.

Priest_of_Seitan wrote: ↑Mon Apr 01, 2019 8:52 pm To Red:
I do believe also, neuter (chipped at ear) and release is a way to go. Our ones was unable to survive alone, (one got 35% chance, the other 50 from the vet at the first evaluation, they had life threatening conditions) so we took into the family.

I think you should spay/neuter every new pet you get, not only since it helps prevent diseases, but it definitely has long term benefits.

Priest_of_Seitan wrote: ↑Mon Apr 01, 2019 8:52 pmI do second your suggestion on the social structures of addressing the wild feline population.

Government Funded TNR is actually more wide-spread than I initially thought, but it's not universal. In the U.S. it's just in about 27 States according to Wikipedia, with only a few counties per state. There are about 60 Million Feral Cats in America, though I can't find a statistic for each state.

Wikipedia doesn't list Hungary or Austria, can you clarify for us if there is government support for TNR?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_g ... ter–return

BTW When I got the cats in my yard neutered/spayed, they were willing to do it free of charge, but I donated $40 anyway. There is a feral cat program here in NYC, so that may have explained why

In Hungary the government doesn't really support anything other than oligarchs, football, hunters and meat industry I am afraid, and I am not even joking. In Austria I yet to obtain the proper language and an understanding of their vegan progresses here to look into the question immediately.

Priest_of_Seitan wrote: ↑Mon Apr 01, 2019 9:31 pm In Hungary the government doesn't really support anything other than oligarchs, football, hunters and meat industry I am afraid, and I am not even joking.

I don't doubt you, and that really sucks.

Priest_of_Seitan wrote: ↑Mon Apr 01, 2019 9:31 pm In Austria I yet to obtain the proper language and an understanding of their vegan progresses here to look into the question immediately.

No rush, just asking if you knew.

Let's think of it this way: would your cat take care of you if you switched places? No, cats that happen to be big enough (lions...) kill and eat humans. So, why should you bother to take care of that selfish being?