Philosophical Vegan Forum

I posted this on the youtube video of VA Vs MR. I'd like to know your thoughts on it.



I'm Kind of shocked at how unbelievably aggressive vegans are when it comes to talking about this subject! You Vegans are literally as bad as religious zealots when it comes to anyone saying that they do not follow your belief.

Diet
How is it immoral to eat meat when we are humans/primates that have evolved as omnivores? Our bodies are designed to consume and digest other animals.
Now before making this post I haven't done any research which is abnormal for me, however if memory serves me correct EPA ( a long chain omega 3 fatty acid) Is found mostly in fish like Salmon and is almost non existent in plants maybe seaweed or something. It's crucial for brain development reduces heart disease and a slew of other stuff. Please don't quote me because I didn't research, but I don't believe that you can get the needed amounts through a vegan diet.

Immoral Actions
In one instance of this video you said you have never heard of vegans kidnapping or forcing anyone to do anything to that I suggest you look up the animal liberation front and Peta. Those organizations have done tremendously shitty things to people.
Not only do those organizations, which are comprised of mostly vegans, do crappy things to us they also do more damage to animals than they actually help. Trying to take their moral stance in France they ran into a store and poured red pain over a bunch of real fur coats.
The result of this is the store owner having to order and sell 23 new coats per coat that was destroyed to make a profit back. (I think it's somewhere along those lines.) Now more animals have to die because of their actions.
Personal Belief
I actually wish I could be strong willed enough to be vegan. I have no idea how you guys manage to stay with that life style. I've quit smoking after 22 years on and off. I never gave into doing any type of drugs even though I came from a family filled of drug addicts. I've showed tremendous will throughout my life when it came to avoiding unhealthy things or quitting bad habits, however I lack the will power to quit being a fat ass,
I wish you guys luck on your life style choices and dietary needs, but I must urge you from someone that has an opposing viewpoint but isn't completely closed minded to think before you attack because you may just shut that person out who may have been flirting with the idea of changing his life style to a way that is more within your acceptable range.

wfathiest wrote: I'm Kind of shocked at how unbelievably aggressive vegans are when it comes to talking about this subject!

Some are aggressive and confrontational, and some are more diplomatic. Just like there are some aggressive atheists, and others are more diplomatic.

For modern people, in our industrial technological age, eating meat is simply wrong.

The practice damages health, the environment, and promotes cruelty towards other species of animals.

Much like, in the modern age of enlightenment and science, believing in these fundamental religions is just incredibly absurd and harmful to society and others.

It's a similar issue. Some people just have different styles of confrontation.

wfathiest wrote:You Vegans are literally as bad as religious zealots when it comes to anyone saying that they do not follow your belief.

See, here you're just trying to insult and offend us.

Please apologize for that.

There are many atheists accused of the same. The issue is how much passion somebody has for a topic, and any political or philosophical topic can generate a lot of passion on both sides.

There are a few irrational vegans, just as there are some irrational atheists, but since the facts are on the side of veganism and atheism, the vast majority of irrational and dogmatic ideas come from the other side.

wfathiest wrote:Diet
How is it immoral to eat meat when we are humans/primates that have evolved as omnivores? Our bodies are designed to consume and digest other animals.

Our bodies are not designed, they evolved. We can eat plants, meat, or plants and meat, and many other things as well.
Biology is versatile. But biology doesn't dictate proper action.

See here:

https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/appeal-to-nature

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeal_to_nature

Airplanes and bicycles are unnatural, therefore evil! Right? No, of course not.

Rape is natural (the penis evolved to facilitate rape- it's true, look it up), therefore there's nothing wrong with rape! Right?

No, again, of course not.

Things are right or wrong based on whether they cause harm to other sentient beings, be they our fellow humans, or fellow species of sentient animals.

There are many terrible things in nature. Having transcended nature to some extent with society and technology, we can make the choice to leave some of that brutality behind.

wfathiest wrote:Now before making this post I haven't done any research which is abnormal for me, however if memory serves me correct EPA ( a long chain omega 3 fatty acid) Is found mostly in fish like Salmon and is almost non existent in plants maybe seaweed or something. It's crucial for brain development reduces heart disease and a slew of other stuff. Please don't quote me because I didn't research, but I don't believe that you can get the needed amounts through a vegan diet.

If you would do research, you will find you are mistaken. Be careful to use credible sources, not conspiracy theory sites... there are a lot of fake health sites on there. Go with government and NGO sources, like the academy of dietitians, american heart association, etc.

The body manufactures its own EPA and DHA in more than adequate amounts. However, excessive consumption of Omega 6 over Omega 3 inhibits the conversion to these forms.
Omega 6 rich diets are a hallmark of the developed world, and come from certain oils that are overused in foods. The easiest way to correct it is to avoid these unhealthy oils in excess.

Aside from just eating better (which solves the problem), DHA and EPA can also be obtained from marine vegetables, and vegan forms are available:

http://www.devanutrition.com/vegan_dha_epa.html

Extracted from marine algae, which is where fish get it (by eating this algae, often indirectly).

The benefit of getting DHA and EPA from supplements rather than fish, to health, is in avoiding heavy metals and other contamination in fish, as well as carcinogens produced in cooking fish (which form from the breakdown of creatine under heat with other substances), and other substances that are metabolized into carcinogens.


If you do research, you'll find that we're not a bunch of idiots, ignorant of basic nutrition. Vegans know more about nutrition than carnists do; the knowledge is part of our subculture (just as it is part of the atheist subculture to know more about logic, and usually the Bible, than Christians do).

Ask me any questions you want about nutrition.

wfathiest wrote: Immoral Actions
In one instance of this video you said you have never heard of vegans kidnapping or forcing anyone to do anything to that I suggest you look up the animal liberation front and Peta. Those organizations have done tremendously shitty things to people.

You're mixing up two very different organizations.

PETA doesn't do that stuff, they just do goofy publicity stunts, and give out information. They have funded the legal defense of some people who have done bad things (not under their direction), but this is controversial.

If you want to talk more about it, you'll have to do more research to understand the issue.

I don't support ALF, or any criminal activity. In my view it doesn't help matters.

wfathiest wrote:Trying to take their moral stance in France they ran into a store and poured red pain over a bunch of real fur coats.
The result of this is the store owner having to order and sell 23 new coats per coat that was destroyed to make a profit back. (I think it's somewhere along those lines.) Now more animals have to die because of their actions.

You're misunderstanding the issue. I don't support property destruction, but the bottom line is that they were trying to cost the owner money to make the fur trade less profitable, and in that they succeeded. These kinds of things also decrease demand for fur and raise awareness.

The question becomes: Do the ends justify the means?

It's a complex economic and philosophical issue.

If you want to understand the economics in more detail, you'll need to do more research on the issue.

wfathiest wrote:I actually wish I could be strong willed enough to be vegan. I have no idea how you guys manage to stay with that life style.

It's like quitting smoking. It can be bad for a few days, cravings come on go for some weeks, then an odd and unpredictable one now and then for months, but it gets easier and easier, until you don't really want it anymore.

If you quit smoking, you're a pretty strong willed person, and you know what it takes. So, you can go vegan. It would do great things for your health- although some people make the mistake of going junk-food-vegan, which is another thing and not that healthy. You'd have to base your diet around whole plant foods, less doughnuts and chips (not all vegan things are healthy, and these fried things have too much omega 6- see my explanation earlier).

Mock meat, or "fake meat" can help the transition. It's expensive, but don't think of it like a regular food, but more like nicotine gum or a patch. It just helps tide over cravings without backsliding.

Some people make the mistake of thinking to be vegan you have to eat mock meats, and that therefore veganism is expensive. Most vegans rarely eat them, and veganism is cheaper than eating meat (just like not-smoking is cheaper than being a smoker, AFTER you quit and don't have to buy patches and gum anymore).

Have you ever tried being a veg*n?

I used to struggle with being overweight too, when I adopted a vegan diet I lost 12 kg effortlessly. It's incredibly easy as you can eat as much as you want and still lose wait due to the fiber. Fiber basically fills you up without adding any calories so you eat less calories than you need and thus lose weight. Even some very high calorie foods like nuts do not seem to make you gain weight.

Also, while I do not agree with acts of many vegan activists it's nothing compared to what humans do to animals. Even if it was, that is not an argument against veganism and a terrible generalisation. But dude, what is 'being shitty to people' compared to the 150 billion animals slain each year for our pleasure and convenience?

miniboes wrote:Have you ever tried being a veg*n?

I used to struggle with being overweight too, when I adopted a vegan diet I lost 12 kg effortlessly. It's incredibly easy as you can eat as much as you want and still lose wait due to the fiber. Fiber basically fills you up without adding any calories so you eat less calories than you need and thus lose weight. Even some very high calorie foods like nuts do not seem to make you gain weight.

Also, while I do not agree with acts of many vegan activists it's nothing compared to what humans do to animals. Even if it was, that is not an argument against veganism and a terrible generalisation. But dude, what is 'being shitty to people' compared to the 150 billion animals slain each year for our pleasure and convenience?

My struggles with weight are more from my body type and my general laziness. A few years ago I was able to loose 32lbs in a month by going to the gym and eating properly, however I got bored of it and much preferred to watch GoT or play video games.
As far as trying the vegan diet yes I have, but it didn't work well for me. I couldn't sustain it for more than a week. Quitting smoking was easier by a ton compared to switching to a vegan life style.

wfathiest wrote: My struggles with weight are more from my body type and my general laziness. A few years ago I was able to loose 32lbs in a month by going to the gym and eating properly, however I got bored of it and much preferred to watch GoT or play video games.
As far as trying the vegan diet yes I have, but it didn't work well for me. I couldn't sustain it for more than a week. Quitting smoking was easier by a ton compared to switching to a vegan life style.

How did you go about it? Like turning a switch or gradually?

wfathiest wrote: My struggles with weight are more from my body type and my general laziness. A few years ago I was able to loose 32lbs in a month by going to the gym and eating properly, however I got bored of it and much preferred to watch GoT or play video games.

Body type is mostly a myth. There are slight propensities due to genetic and epigenetic factors, but nothing that can't be fairly easily overcome.

You can be fit and lazy if you want, but you have to eat right while sitting on your ass and playing games.

wfathiest wrote: As far as trying the vegan diet yes I have, but it didn't work well for me. I couldn't sustain it for more than a week. Quitting smoking was easier by a ton compared to switching to a vegan life style.

Sounds like you went too healthy too fast, or perhaps didn't eat enough calories and your fat cells cried out in protest.

What did you eat?

If your diet is fatty now, you'll probably need to eat a fattier vegan diet to ease yourself in. Just choose fats that are healthier for your body, like nuts and avocado as much as possible.

Tell me what you ate that didn't work, what you eat now, and I'll help you put together something that will be healthier, but not such a shock to the system.

wfathiest wrote:

miniboes wrote:Have you ever tried being a veg*n?

I used to struggle with being overweight too, when I adopted a vegan diet I lost 12 kg effortlessly. It's incredibly easy as you can eat as much as you want and still lose wait due to the fiber. Fiber basically fills you up without adding any calories so you eat less calories than you need and thus lose weight. Even some very high calorie foods like nuts do not seem to make you gain weight.

Also, while I do not agree with acts of many vegan activists it's nothing compared to what humans do to animals. Even if it was, that is not an argument against veganism and a terrible generalisation. But dude, what is 'being shitty to people' compared to the 150 billion animals slain each year for our pleasure and convenience?

My struggles with weight are more from my body type and my general laziness. A few years ago I was able to loose 32lbs in a month by going to the gym and eating properly, however I got bored of it and much preferred to watch GoT or play video games.
As far as trying the vegan diet yes I have, but it didn't work well for me. I couldn't sustain it for more than a week. Quitting smoking was easier by a ton compared to switching to a vegan life style.

I tried to eat lots of mushrooms, kale, broccoli, beans, spinach, avocadoes, nuts, and fruits ( I love fruits btw) I completely cut out meat/dairy/refined carbohydrates and sugars. Drank only water and in about a week I went insane.

wfathiest wrote:

miniboes wrote:Have you ever tried being a veg*n?

I used to struggle with being overweight too, when I adopted a vegan diet I lost 12 kg effortlessly. It's incredibly easy as you can eat as much as you want and still lose wait due to the fiber. Fiber basically fills you up without adding any calories so you eat less calories than you need and thus lose weight. Even some very high calorie foods like nuts do not seem to make you gain weight.

Also, while I do not agree with acts of many vegan activists it's nothing compared to what humans do to animals. Even if it was, that is not an argument against veganism and a terrible generalisation. But dude, what is 'being shitty to people' compared to the 150 billion animals slain each year for our pleasure and convenience?

The activists tend to just be assholes who happen to be vegan. You are right on this subject. I have watched I am Animal and some of the videos they showed of people doing horrible things to animals were horrible. I can not express how horrible I feel when I see such things, and I'd gladly show anyone that wants the article 15 I got in the military when I was in a physical confrontation with another soldier who told me how he used to kill cats for fun and games.

It seems to me you actually agree with the vegan mentality and you just can't make the leap, could that be true?

miniboes wrote:It seems to me you actually agree with the vegan mentality and you just can't make the leap, could that be true?

I agree with not doing needless harm to animals or that we should take extra care to protect those that can not protect themselves. I made a response post that was really long but started to become a ramble so I didn't post it but in essence it was this:

We evolved from primates that were omnivores just as we are now. We developed higher cognitive process around 250kish years ago and with a more advance communication than grunts and points we were eating meat. So, from generation to generation it's not seen as bad or taboo and has helped sustain and grow the population.

Am I against veganism? No not at all I just am against people saying that they have the only moral way and others that don't follow it are immoral. That is basically the religious argument in a nutshell. I'm not sure if the vegan diet has had substantial studying done to affirm it's rhetoric. If it's truly healthier for you than one day it will be proven and more people will be educated and then decide to make that change if they want.