Philosophical Vegan Forum

While reviewing the work of Melanie Joy, I was struck by the parallels between carnism (beliefs that support the eating of animal flesh) and statism (beliefs that support the existence of government). I will share some of these ideas here…

Carnism is described as a belief system that creates a gap in our thinking, inhibiting our free choice about an impactful social justice issue. This gap is largely due to our seeing carnism as a given. We experience it as ubiquitously accepted since the time of our birth, and though we may often witness or participate in discussions about the choices made within that framework, we rarely (if ever) hear discussions about that framework (whether or not the concept itself is appropriate). The comparisons here are fairly clear, but they will become more so as we go deeper.

We do not make the connection between the food on our plate, and the animal that was sacrificed to make that meal possible. Likewise, the services that government provides are often described as “free”, without a conscious connection being made to the fact that others have worked and had the fruit of their labor seized in to supply that service. Of course, in both cases, we will readily make the acknowledgement when pressed, but it is not prominent in our general awareness.

Inconsistencies exist between how we think about animal X and animal Y, such that we deem it unthinkable to slaughter and eat a dog, but perfectly reasonable to do so with a pig. Similarly, if I were to rob someone at gunpoint in order to pay for my child’s education, it would be thought of as a heinous act; but “taxation” being used to effect that same end is deemed perfectly acceptable. So if your neighbor does something, it’s wrong, but if a politician or enforcement agent does it, it’s right.

The myths of the belief system are presented as the facts: it’s “normal, natural and necessary”. "Normal" merely means that it represents the prominent belief system – an appeal to popularity or longevity (one would hope that on these forums it need not be explained why this is invalid). "Natural" implies that it is somehow an inherent feature of our species, but if this were true, then why must it leverage obfuscations and justifications in order to make it more palatable?

We balk at having our liberties infringed upon, at having our will to perform benign actions impeded by others, at kidnapping, theft, assault, murder, and all other forms of domination. But through sociopolitical rituals, we pretend to wash these actions clean. Kidnapping is now “lawful arrest”. Theft is now “taxation”. Murder is now “casualties of war”. If this is natural, why can we not bear to see it as it is, without having to euphemize or perform complex legal actions in order to justify it?

Necessity is clearly not present. We do not need government to survive. Governments did not exist for the majority of human history. There were elders and tribal leaders, but a leader is not a ruler. The former inspires assent through skill or knowledge, while the latter demands it by force. Water is a necessity. Government is not. And yet, this argument is made more often than any other – even among those who recognize government as an "evil".

It is a belief system of domination and subjugation, privilege and oppression. Be it “milk cows” or “taxpayers”, someone is turned into something in an effort to remove us from the fact that we are imposing upon the life of an individual conscious being. It’s a “might makes right” mentality – an ideology of violence.

Those who stand in opposition to this degrading influence in our world are labelled “extremist”, “sensationalist”, “biased”, or even "insane". They are shunned, their ideas are ridiculed, and the validity of their position is diminished, or denied outright without due consideration.

All of these ideas come directly from Melanie Joy’s “Why We Love Dogs, Eat Pigs, and Wear Cows” and is merely the tip of the iceberg. Replace “carnism” with “statism” and at least 75% of everything she says applies directly.

BrianBlackwell wrote:Governments did not exist for the majority of human history.

What makes you think that's the case? The first written documents are about taxation. And somebody has been forcing people to go to war way before recorded history (there is evidence of massacres dated back to stone age). Maybe it's not like that first humans had governments to opress them, but it's certainly not far from that.

As for other things, I couldn't agree with you more.

teo123 wrote: ↑Fri Jun 14, 2019 5:03 am

BrianBlackwell wrote:Governments did not exist for the majority of human history.

What makes you think that's the case? The first written documents are about taxation. And somebody has been forcing people to go to war way before recorded history

Teo, the written word has been around for about 5000 years. Humans have been around for 200000 years. Also, you only need a group of people to go to war. You don't need governments for that.

Jebus wrote:Teo, the written word has been around for about 5000 years. Humans have been around for 200000 years.

So what? Why would the unwritten history be much different? Do you think that writing somehow appeared because of the governments?
I find the hypothesis that writing appeared and disappeared multiple times in human history, just like agriculture (and perhaps caused by agriculture), much more convincing. There are convincing arguments that the drawings of the Vinča culture (dated to around 5500 BC) were in fact a writing system, which can perhaps be partially deciphered (the often-repeated sign of a zig-zag line in a square probably means "water", just like the similar signs in the early Chinese and Egyptian writing...). I mean, why else would a scriber appear to try to squeeze symbols at the end of a pot if he wasn't trying to record down a sentence? There are also people who claim that some cave drawings were in fact a writing system, perhaps even a phonetic or a syllabic one, but I find those claims rather unconvincing.

Jebus wrote:Also, you only need a group of people to go to war. You don't need governments for that.

If you think a large group of people would go to war without anybody forcing and brainwashing them to, yes. Otherwise, no.

Don't expect me to debate here, I have a lot real-life issues. On the programming competition in Poreč I and a few other students from my university were on a few weeks ago, we were freezing in rooms without any heating system for a week. And we were driven to Poreč in a bus that had some problems with a gear-changer, and it didn't get fixed, and it stopped working in the middle of a tunnel when we were driven back to Osijek.
That's how it goes when government organizes something, it never works, and nobody is accountable, and you are being shut up if you point out the problems.
I got a bacterial inflammation of both eyes and left ear. I wasn't able to study for yet another week. I failed nearly all the exams. Ironically, the only test I passed was the physics test, which I wasn't preparing for at all, and which 94% of my fellow classmates failed. I also failed mathematics, and I solved the maturity test in mathematics better than any of my fellow classmates here at the university (I solved it 93%, the next one after me solved it 90%). Now I am not only not the best, I failed it. Makes me wonder if those exams actually measure some form of knowledge and skills, or if I just happened to be the lucky one until now.
Furthermore, I agreed to go onto that stupid competition because one of the professors promised me I wouldn't have to go to the programming exam (testing the knowledge of some weird and useless details of the C programming language), and now it turns out I have to go to it. OK, I am pretty sure I can get a passing score there without preparing at all, but it still makes me somewhat angry.
The repeated exams in electrotechics and electronics are allegedly a lot easier than the first ones, but that's not a guarantee I will pass them this time.
So, yeah, studying computer science at the university of Osijek isn't easy.
Also, my mother has gotten a rectal cancer (apparently while she was in jail for a year), and although the surgery went well, she still feels weak. My grandfather and father are also ill, but... well, my mother wouldn't let me go to their house and help them (she tells me she will kill herself if I do that), because she is convinced that my father wanted her to end up in jail (total nonsense, if you ask me).
I've also taken a cold look at the linguistics paper I've tried to publish in the Požega ethnological journal. Well, I see there are quite a few things that can be added to make it more clear. My paper might have looked like I was unaware of much of the existing literature on the topic on the Croatian toponyms. So, I've written another seven pages of text, mostly arguing why I think the existing existing theories are false, and, more importantly, the currently-accepted methodologies are flawed. But the most important part is that I've figured out how to argue for some of the assumptions I've made about how languages work using computational linguistics. So, maybe it's indeed a good think that my original paper got rejected as "unclear".
I've been a vegetarian for years now, but I never find the time to learn how to actually be vegan. I always think there is something more pressing to do in my life.

Wow Teo, you're quite the intelligent guy! And you're still in college? You're very bright for your age.

teo123 wrote: ↑Sat Jun 15, 2019 3:19 pm Don't expect me to debate here, I have a lot real-life issues. On the programming competition in Poreč I and a few other students from my university were on a few weeks ago, we were freezing in rooms without any heating system for a week. And we were driven to Poreč in a bus that had some problems with a gear-changer, and it didn't get fixed, and it stopped working in the middle of a tunnel when we were driven back to Osijek.

That's terrible! Hopefully they reimburse you?

That's how it goes when government organizes something, it never works, and nobody is accountable, and you are being shut up if you point out the problems.

When you put it like that, that's actually an extremely compelling argument against government.

I got a bacterial inflammation of both eyes and left ear. I wasn't able to study for yet another week. I failed nearly all the exams. Ironically, the only test I passed was the physics test, which I wasn't preparing for at all, and which 94% of my fellow classmates failed. I also failed mathematics, and I solved the maturity test in mathematics better than any of my fellow classmates here at the university (I solved it 93%, the next one after me solved it 90%). Now I am not only not the best, I failed it. Makes me wonder if those exams actually measure some form of knowledge and skills, or if I just happened to be the lucky one until now.

You're seriously a prodigy, that's amazing. The fact that even with the inflammations and not preparing, you're able to do better than almost your entire class is more than just impressive. You're obviously way ahead of everyone else at this school, you should transfer to one with people who are as intelligent as you.

Furthermore, I agreed to go onto that stupid competition because one of the professors promised me I wouldn't have to go to the programming exam (testing the knowledge of some weird and useless details of the C programming language), and now it turns out I have to go to it. OK, I am pretty sure I can get a passing score there without preparing at all, but it still makes me somewhat angry.

The nerve! This thing seems much below your level. I'd be angry too, especially considering that you don't even need to prepare for this.

The repeated exams in electrotechics and electronics are allegedly a lot easier than the first ones, but that's not a guarantee I will pass them this time.
So, yeah, studying computer science at the university of Osijek isn't easy.

Given your intellect, I think you have a pretty solid shot.
Why ar you going to this Osijek University? You should transfer to a school in the Americas. You seem Ivy League material.

Also, my mother has gotten a rectal cancer (apparently while she was in jail for a year), and although the surgery went well, she still feels weak. My grandfather and father are also ill, but... well, my mother wouldn't let me go to their house and help them (she tells me she will kill herself if I do that), because she is convinced that my father wanted her to end up in jail (total nonsense, if you ask me).

That's honestly terrible, I hope everything gets better.

I've also taken a cold look at the linguistics paper I've tried to publish in the Požega ethnological journal. Well, I see there are quite a few things that can be added to make it more clear. My paper might have looked like I was unaware of much of the existing literature on the topic on the Croatian toponyms. So, I've written another seven pages of text, mostly arguing why I think the existing existing theories are false, and, more importantly, the currently-accepted methodologies are flawed. But the most important part is that I've figured out how to argue for some of the assumptions I've made about how languages work using computational linguistics. So, maybe it's indeed a good think that my original paper got rejected as "unclear".
I

Hey, you seem to know your stuff. I don't think anyone here is going to argue with you on this.

've been a vegetarian for years now, but I never find the time to learn how to actually be vegan. I always think there is something more pressing to do in my life.

I agree, you should always focus on the self first. Ever read Ayn Rand? She's amazing, you'll love her.

MittensTheCat wrote:Wow Teo, you're quite the intelligent guy!

Well, most of the people on this forum don't think so.

MittensTheCat wrote:And you're still in college?

Well, yes, I am 19 now.

MittensTheCat wrote:Hopefully they reimburse you?

Well, no. My electrotechnics professor ever threatened me I'd have to repeat the class (all the courses I've done this year) for not having done enough laboratory exercises this semester. Can you imagine the irony, first they talk me into going to some competition, then I get ill there and end up not being able to do laboratory exercises, and then it's somehow my fault?!
At least I did relatively well at that competition, I ended up being the 7th in Croatia (and that's not just the students from the first year). I've also been going to programming competitions in primary school and in high school, so I know quite a few tricks for them by now.

MittensTheCat wrote:The fact that even with the inflammations and not preparing, you're able to do better than almost your entire class is more than just impressive.

You haven't been on this forum long enough to see all the irony here. I don't know much about physics. I am the guy who often tries to use physics in the arguments on this forum, and it usually turns out I completely misunderstood some part of physics.

MittensTheCat wrote:This thing seems much below your level.

I mean, the thing that irritates me the most about both the programming exams and the programming competitions is that they test the skills which have little to nothing to do with the development of the actual programs. I mean, what does the knowledge that's tested on the competitions have to do with making a Pac-Man game playable on smartphones? I've been onto quite a few programming competitions, and I've made that game, and if you ask me, the answer is nothing. Sure, you need a bit of that knowledge that's tested on the competitions and on the university exams (DFS algorithm, for example) to make, for instance, a web-app that converts arithmetic expressions to assembly, but that's, as far as I can see, all there is to it. Those competitions certainly aren't worth all that funding by UNESCO and similar organizations. And universities are, as far as I can tell, a cure for a sickness they create: they make people dependent on them because you can't get a job without them (because the employers are impressed by somebody who has an university degree), but they teach little to no skills that are actually needed for the jobs.

MittensTheCat wrote:Why ar you going to this Osijek University? You should transfer to a school in the Americas.

Well, I don't like the idea of getting too far from home. That's why I didn't apply to the Zagreb university, which is more prestigious here in Croatia. As for going to America, look, I am afraid of moving to America after knowing so much about American politics. What if Bernie Sanders or Alexandria Ocasio Cortez come to power? America will end up like Venezuela, and it seems rather possible they will come to power. And if Ted Cruz or Jim Inhofe come to power, the war on drugs is going to get worse, as if it already isn't one of the greatest threats to human rights in the world. I mean, how many millions of people in America end up in jail for using "illegal" drugs to fight pain, drugs many of which are actually legal here in Croatia? Plus, how may tens of millions of homeless people are there in America? How can I know I won't end up being one of them?

MittensTheCat wrote:That's honestly terrible, I hope everything gets better.

I've been hoping for that for years and years and years. If I hadn't so childishly hoped things will get better, maybe I could have prevented my mother from ending up in jail.

MittensTheCat wrote:Hey, you seem to know your stuff. I don't think anyone here is going to argue with you on this.

Well, we did argue about that on this forum. And @brimstoneSalad told me he thinks my theories are very unlikely to be right because I supposedly don't understand math and I supposedly don't understand what is hard science. And then I said that he/she could use those same arguments to argue that the Einstein's theory of relativity is unlikely to be correct. And then I got banned for three days for "trolling" ("comparing myself to Einstein"). And he/she said he/she will ban me if I bring up this topic again before a year has passed.

MittensTheCat wrote:Ever read Ayn Rand?

No, and I don't think I'll have time for that any time soon.

teo123 wrote: ↑Sun Jun 16, 2019 6:16 am Well, most of the people on this forum don't think so.

Really?

Well what the fuck do they know, right?

teo123 wrote: ↑Sun Jun 16, 2019 6:16 am Well, yes, I am 19 now.

I know I've said it before, but you're a fucking genius.

teo123 wrote: ↑Sun Jun 16, 2019 6:16 am Well, no. My electrotechnics professor ever threatened me I'd have to repeat the class (all the courses I've done this year) for not having done enough laboratory exercises this semester. Can you imagine the irony, first they talk me into going to some competition, then I get ill there and end up not being able to do laboratory exercises, and then it's somehow my fault?!

Wow, that's awful. Tell your electrotechnics professor to go fuck himself. He obviously underestimates the person he is talking to.

teo123 wrote: ↑Sun Jun 16, 2019 6:16 amAt least I did relatively well at that competition, I ended up being the 7th in Croatia (and that's not just the students from the first year). I've also been going to programming competitions in primary school and in high school, so I know quite a few tricks for them by now.

You were robbed of that 1st place. I have a feeling the 6 who beat you just got lucky.

teo123 wrote: ↑Sun Jun 16, 2019 6:16 am You haven't been on this forum long enough to see all the irony here. I don't know much about physics. I am the guy who often tries to use physics in the arguments on this forum, and it usually turns out I completely misunderstood some part of physics.

Irrelevant. You clearly have a very solid grasp on physics, and any past mistakes you've made definitely have been corrected now.

teo123 wrote: ↑Sun Jun 16, 2019 6:16 am I mean, the thing that irritates me the most about both the programming exams and the programming competitions is that they test the skills which have little to nothing to do with the development of the actual programs. I mean, what does the knowledge that's tested on the competitions have to do with making a Pac-Man game playable on smartphones? I've been onto quite a few programming competitions, and I've made that game, and if you ask me, the answer is nothing. Sure, you need a bit of that knowledge that's tested on the competitions and on the university exams (DFS algorithm, for example) to make, for instance, a web-app that converts arithmetic expressions to assembly, but that's, as far as I can see, all there is to it.

Wow, that is an amazing port of Pac Man, your coding skill is unfathomable.

teo123 wrote: ↑Sun Jun 16, 2019 6:16 amThose competitions certainly aren't worth all that funding by UNESCO and similar organizations. And universities are, as far as I can tell, a cure for a sickness they create: they make people dependent on them because you can't get a job without them (because the employers are impressed by somebody who has an university degree), but they teach little to no skills that are actually needed for the jobs.

Again, what the fuck do they know?

teo123 wrote: ↑Sun Jun 16, 2019 6:16 am Well, I don't like the idea of getting too far from home. That's why I didn't apply to the Zagreb university, which is more prestigious here in Croatia. As for going to America, look, I am afraid of moving to America after knowing so much about American politics. What if Bernie Sanders or Alexandria Ocasio Cortez come to power? America will end up like Venezuela, and it seems rather possible they will come to power. And if Ted Cruz or Jim Inhofe come to power, the war on drugs is going to get worse, as if it already isn't one of the greatest threats to human rights in the world. I mean, how many millions of people in America end up in jail for using "illegal" drugs to fight pain, drugs many of which are actually legal here in Croatia? Plus, how may tens of millions of homeless people are there in America? How can I know I won't end up being one of them?

Those are all legitimate concerns. Your understanding of foreign politics and being able to determine things is excellent.

teo123 wrote: ↑Sun Jun 16, 2019 6:16 am Well, we did argue about that on this forum. And @brimstoneSalad told me he thinks my theories are very unlikely to be right because I supposedly don't understand math and I supposedly don't understand what is hard science. And then I said that he/she could use those same arguments to argue that the Einstein's theory of relativity is unlikely to be correct.

You probably are the next Einstein the way I see it. brimstoneSalad doesn't know what he's talking about.

teo123 wrote: ↑Sun Jun 16, 2019 6:16 am And then I got banned for three days for "trolling" ("comparing myself to Einstein"). And he/she said he/she will ban me if I bring up this topic again before a year has passed.

WTF is wrong with this 'brimstoneSalad?' He/She is obviously just jealous of your intellectual abilities at a young age.

teo123 wrote: ↑Sun Jun 16, 2019 6:16 am No, and I don't think I'll have time for that any time soon.

Ah yes, I understand you're a very busy person.

@Red come on, stop trolling.

brimstoneSalad wrote: ↑Sun Jun 16, 2019 4:45 pm @Red come on, stop trolling.

I do not see what you mean.