Vaccines, Flu Shots, and eggs

[brimstoneSalad]

Most of you probably know, you have to break a few eggs to make most vaccines. The eggs are used as biological medium, and in general (according to a brief interview I had a chance to do with somebody who worked in the industry), it's around one egg per shot (it would be great to have data to confirm or contradict that).

While it is non-controversial (aside from anti-vaccination nuttery) that vaccines do great good in society, it's also true that egg production causes substantial suffering for chickens.

Unlike meat (which is a lose-lose scenario), vaccinations are more complicated. There's good, and there's bad, all muddled up together, and there's no other clear viable way to produce the vaccines at a reasonable cost (as far as I know).


So there in lies a consequentialist dilemma.

What do you think?

Vaccinating for plagues of potentially epidemic proportions that are very often lethal seems to fall on the side of probably doing much more good for humanity than it does harm to chickens.

What about flu shots, that save most people a few days of sniffles?

Where, if anywhere, do you think the line is?

Medicines are broadly considered exempt from concern due to necessity, but there is arguably a point at which they become non-essential too. Where is that point?

[miniboes]

I just can't imagine we wouldn't be able to figure out something without eggs, it seems ridiculous given modern technology.

[brimstoneSalad]

I just can't imagine we wouldn't be able to figure out something without eggs, it seems ridiculous given modern technology.

I think it's a cost issue.

For some vaccines that require human cells, human stem cell lines are used. It might be possible to find vaccine versions produced with human cell lines... but then, I don't know what medium they're grown in (probably animal-based). And it might not be possible if it will grow in either.

The trouble is that these viruses need to replicate in animal cells... you need a source of cells.

There are a few that can be replicated chemically, apparently, so with advances in biochemistry, I guess that would be the hope for animal-cell-free vaccines in the future.

Here's an article that talks about human cell lines a little, and mentions the cell free method for some:

http://www.immunizationinfo.org/issues/ ... e-vaccines

In the future it may be possible to prepare virus vaccines using molecular tools that do not require growing the virus in living cells. For example, today’s hepatitis B vaccines are made using molecular tools that do not require animal cells at all. It is not possible to prepare most virus vaccines using these methods now, however.

[miniboes]

Could we use corpses?

[brimstoneSalad]

Could we use corpses?

Unfortunately, no, because they have to be 'clean', which is, without a bunch of other unknown viruses contaminating the sample.

Cell cultures are pretty much sterile, as are eggs. Any tissue from a living (or once living), born/hatched organism have been exposed to a world of viruses that pretty much irreparably contaminate them.

[Volenta]

I actually didn't know about the eggs. Like lots of other consequentialist questions, it's hard to know the answer in advance, which of the two options causes the most harm.

Generally speaking about health care and medicines and things like that: if there are no vegan options available and it's important to get treated, I won't make an issue out of it. I think it's healthy to draw a line where your own life is (potentially) in danger. Of course I would advocate the most humane ways of getting the needed recourses, but I don't think there's a lot an individual can do in situations like this.

[brimstoneSalad]

Generally speaking about health care and medicines and things like that: if there are no vegan options available and it's important to get treated, I won't make an issue out of it.

I agree.

I think it's healthy to draw a line where your own life is (potentially) in danger.

What about where your own life is pretty certainly not in danger?

e.g. seasonal flu shots. Usually only elderly die of the flu, and if you're young and healthy, there's no risk to you -- but by contracting and spreading the flu, that strain may eventually reach a victim (or it may not), but it's an intrinsic risk to others despite no risk to yourself.

In these areas, it seems to become more complicated, and I wonder, when the benefits of the shot are reduced as such, if it's worth it anymore for the suffering it causes.

One egg being around 24 hours of suffering, and a small fraction of a death.

[miniboes]

How about human waste? Human menstruation rather than chicken menstruation? (Sorry, I know nothing)

I agree with Volenta said. In the case of the flu, it seems to me we will never be able to convince the majority of people to put even such a little interest below the interest of chicken. On what we ought to do, I think we should not discriminate on what diseases we vaccinate for as it becomes very risky where we draw the line; how many old people are we willing to sacrifice to spare the chicken?. I think there would be outrage if old people start to die from the flu just to save chicken however large the number is.

[brimstoneSalad]

I believe they have to be fertilized.

Chicken eggs are also larger, and have a convenient shell around them that protects them somewhat from contamination.

[Volenta]

What about where your own life is pretty certainly not in danger?

e.g. seasonal flu shots. Usually only elderly die of the flu, and if you're young and healthy, there's no risk to you -- but by contracting and spreading the flu, that strain may eventually reach a victim (or it may not), but it's an intrinsic risk to others despite no risk to yourself.

In these areas, it seems to become more complicated, and I wonder, when the benefits of the shot are reduced as such, if it's worth it anymore for the suffering it causes.

One egg being around 24 hours of suffering, and a small fraction of a death.

You're right about the necessity to do it collectively. It's a hard problem, I don't really know the answer. It mostly depends on the circumstances of the chicken. If it's battery cage, the suffering of the chickens is possibly bigger than humans getting the flu. With organic eggs, it's mostly about the chicks that get killed. In that case it might be better to take the flu shot, but I'm not really sure.