Philosophical Vegan Forum

Hi all,

I'm glad to have found this forum. I look forward to having constructive debates with members

Hi. What topics would you like to have a discussion on?

Logical Celery wrote: ↑Wed Oct 02, 2019 12:40 pm Hi. What topics would you like to have a discussion on?

Too many topics
Dangers of veganism as religion
Dangers of veganism being co-opted by human social movements, esp feminism
Link between antinatalism and veganism
Animal suffering reduction (effective animal advocacy) vs #govegan

I'm going to pace it for my own mental health :'D

Welcome DaedalusZA,

I have come to realize that there are lots of vegan idiots and there is very little I can do about that. Looking forward to seeing you in our discussions.

Welcome DaedalusZA, the "dangers" wording told us your position on the others, but what's your position on antinatalism? We have a few threads going on that here. You might like to jump in, or you can start your own.

Jebus wrote: ↑Tue Oct 08, 2019 1:45 pm Welcome DaedalusZA,

I have come to realize that there are lots of vegan idiots and there is very little I can do about that. Looking forward to seeing you in our discussions.

Thank you. TBH, I've decided to stop referring to myself as vegan...it just comes with too much baggage to actually aid me in achieving my goal which is to minimize non-human animal suffering.

brimstoneSalad wrote: ↑Thu Oct 10, 2019 1:01 am Welcome DaedalusZA, the "dangers" wording told us your position on the others, but what's your position on antinatalism? We have a few threads going on that here. You might like to jump in, or you can start your own.

Adopted antinatalism about four years back. Studied Ethics under Prof. Benatar in 2006. In 2015/2016 I approached him for recommended literature as I was focusing on the emotional aspect of veganism whilst neglecting the cognitive aspect. Realised that society is already a cacophony of victim shouting and that non-human animals need enlightened, reasoned, and effective advocacy and protection, not more shouting. I first became an antinatalist after reading to Better Never to have Been and then became an atheist after reading The Human Predicament - it was the final nail in the crucifix. Big proponent of the work as well as the man - most ethical, modest, and self-less SOB I've met.

DaedalusZA wrote: ↑Thu Oct 10, 2019 4:51 pmI've decided to stop referring to myself as vegan...it just comes with too much baggage

Yapp! Same here. As most of us know, being vegan is only one (albeit crucial) element to being a good person.

Regarding the antinatalist issue, I've come to the conclusion that it is better for me (and the world) if I keep my opinions to myself. Yes, there are too many people in the world but an antinatalist message/agenda is likely to have a negative impact, since it is a message that is mostly heard and responded to by intelligent people while unheard and ignored by stupid people (leading to fewer intelligent and more stupid babies being born). To make matters worse, some pro natalist people may be turned off by vegansim if it is too closely associated with antinatalism.

DaedalusZA wrote: ↑Thu Oct 10, 2019 5:10 pm Adopted antinatalism about four years back. Studied Ethics under Prof. Benatar in 2006. In 2015/2016 I approached him for recommended literature as I was focusing on the emotional aspect of veganism whilst neglecting the cognitive aspect. Realised that society is already a cacophony of victim shouting and that non-human animals need enlightened, reasoned, and effective advocacy and protection, not more shouting. I first became an antinatalist after reading to Better Never to have Been and then became an atheist after reading The Human Predicament - it was the final nail in the crucifix. Big proponent of the work as well as the man - most ethical, modest, and self-less SOB I've met.

He may be a good person in his own life, but like Jebus mentioned above, advocacy of anti-natalism is deeply problematic in consequentialist terms.
Not only in terms of the asymmetry of antinatalism's influence which makes it non-viable as a voluntary act in Darwinian terms, but also the harm it does to merge it to vegan and environmental advocacy which otherwise would be more acceptable if not chained to that PR nightmare (You've probably discovered this, but telling people not to have children is about the most shocking thing you could ask of them even aside from the genocidal baggage it carries from historical [mis]application).

Beyond that, the philosophical arguments Benatar specifically advocates are just not sound.

Here's a brief discussion of the core problems with the Asymmetry argument: wiki/index.php/Antinatalism
If you have any criticisms of that presentation, please share them. We strive to make the wiki as accurate as possible.

If you have any other arguments too, it'd be awesome if you can share them.
That's just a stub, and there are plans to address stronger arguments after that section.

brimstoneSalad wrote: ↑Fri Oct 11, 2019 3:50 pm

DaedalusZA wrote: ↑Thu Oct 10, 2019 5:10 pm Adopted antinatalism about four years back. Studied Ethics under Prof. Benatar in 2006. In 2015/2016 I approached him for recommended literature as I was focusing on the emotional aspect of veganism whilst neglecting the cognitive aspect. Realised that society is already a cacophony of victim shouting and that non-human animals need enlightened, reasoned, and effective advocacy and protection, not more shouting. I first became an antinatalist after reading to Better Never to have Been and then became an atheist after reading The Human Predicament - it was the final nail in the crucifix. Big proponent of the work as well as the man - most ethical, modest, and self-less SOB I've met.

Here's a brief discussion of the core problems with the Asymmetry argument: http://philosophicalvegan.com/wiki/inde ... tinatalism
If you have any criticisms of that presentation, please share them. We strive to make the wiki as accurate as possible.

If you have any other arguments too, it'd be awesome if you can share them.

Thanks for reply. Will respond properly end of week. I'll send the wiki index link to Prof. and hopefully he has the time to reply himself.