Philosophical Vegan Forum

i think if we put lean meat in our diet we could be healthier A 2012 report found that Americans who regularly eat lean beef get more protein, zinc, potassium, and B vitamins than people who don’t. And a 2010 report estimated that lean beef accounts for about 15 percent of the nation’s protein but only about 4 percent of total fat. “Lean meat is a healthy thing,” says Carol O’Neil, PhD, a coauthor of both reports and a professor of human nutrition and food at Louisiana State University. so lean meat is good, so i think if we cut down on meat and stick to one meat product a day we could reduce the mass production of livestock, and live healthier lives

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VBS2014 wrote:i think if we put lean meat in our diet we could be healthier

No, the S.A.D. (Standard American Diet) is incredibly unhealthy. Replacing full fat meat with lean meat is better for you than eating a typical American diet. However, a plant based diet is healthier than either of those. There is no need for lean meat, but people who eat lean meat are eating less full fat meat, thus making them healthier than they would have been eating the S.A.D.

This is irrelevant to vegetarians, who do not eat meat at all, so lean meat would make them less healthy because it would replace vegetables instead.

Lean meat is not good for you, it is the lesser of two nutritional evils.
It's still equally terrible for the environment, though, and not sustainable.

VBS2014 wrote:A 2012 report found that Americans who regularly eat lean beef get more protein, zinc, potassium, and B vitamins than people who don’t.

This is comparing people who eat fatty fried hamburgers with people who eat lean meat instead.

It's trivial to find that adjusting the typical American diet in almost any way can improve it.

Studies comparing vegan diets with those containing meat routinely show that meat is not health promoting or needed.

Americans do not need more protein (most need less of it), they need more fiber. Vegetarian diets are already much higher in potassium and other minerals.

Zinc and B vitamins are not hard to find in more than adequate amounts without killing cows for it. And remember: Meat still causes cancer, even if you do cut the fat off it.

VBS2014 wrote: And a 2010 report estimated that lean beef accounts for about 15 percent of the nation’s protein but only about 4 percent of total fat.

4% of total fat, given the sheer amount of fat Americans eat, is still significant. There is no need in the American diet for more protein. Do some research on the topic. Vegans are not protein deficient -- plants have plenty of protein in them.

By dry weight, for example, Broccoli has about the same amount of protein as beef.

Avoiding saturated fat is much more important than trying to optimize your protein consumption.
If you're bodybuilding, both are extremely important, and you have to find fat-free sources of healthy plant-protein that won't destroy your body as a consequence.

VBS2014 wrote:“Lean meat is a healthy thing,” says Carol O’Neil

No, it's not a "healthy thing". Apples aren't even a "healthy thing".

It's just healthier than full fat meat. It's less healthy than other things.

You have to understand that, in diet, all foods come in context. If your diet is, on average, more healthy than the thing you are talking about, and that thing doesn't provide anything that diet is lacking, then it would make your diet less healthy to add that thing.

Apples, for example, are a healthy thing in a diet that is lacking in Vitamin C, or otherwise contains few or no fruits or vegetables. For MOST Americans, it is true that Apples are healthy.
But in a healthier diet rich in fruits and vegetables, with plenty of vitamin C already, apples are unhealthy since they only contribute more Sugar, and nothing that was needed in the diet. For vegans, apples are usually unhealthy because they are less healthy than the food that would have been eaten otherwise.

Get it?

Either Carol I'Neil doesn't understand that, and is an idiot (which is possible, there are plenty of professors who are ignorant of their fields), or she was quoted out of context.
Either way, that quote is incorrect.

Do we need to contact her to find out?

Health is contextual; it's a matter of what the item is replacing, what it provides, if those things are needed in larger amounts in that diet, opportunity cost, etc.

VBS2014 wrote:a coauthor of both reports and a professor of human nutrition and food at Louisiana State University.

That explains a lot. Sounds like she's a beef industry person.

VBS2014 wrote:so lean meat is good

No, lean meat is not "good". Neither are apples. They're just better than the stuff you would have eaten otherwise, if you're eating the standard American diet.

However, if you set the bar a little higher than that, then lean meat is an unhealthy addition to a healthier diet.

VBS2014 wrote:so i think if we cut down on meat and stick to one meat product a day we could reduce the mass production of livestock, and live healthier lives

For the average American, that is true.

Cut down on meat. Eat only lean meat. These are better things than what you are doing now.

However, cutting out meat entirely is even better.

Every little bit helps, of course. Half vegetarian is better than full meat, full vegetarian is better than half.

not sure if people will see this (new to website) but thank you for pointing out better solutions, and miss placed quot, and thank you for telling about the prof. being misinformed. also for giving me a lot of better options, but with me, i need lean meat, in my diet, with me im getting all of my daily nutritionist, but one (protein) so i need that extra bit. and im only giving options to help people (mainy the people who eat meat 24 7) for getting better, and healthier

VBS2014 wrote:but with me, i need lean meat, in my diet

No you don't http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19562864

In any case, don't you think there are other things that are important besides your health, like the planet and the well being of other people and animals?

Protein is protein where ever you get it from. and there are plenty of other sources.
and in many(if not most) cases the other sources are cheaper.

VBS2014 wrote:not sure if people will see this (new to website) but thank you for pointing out better solutions, and miss placed quot, and thank you for telling about the prof. being misinformed. also for giving me a lot of better options

I'm glad to help. There's a lot of misinformation out there, and on both sides too (you can find some wrong information on vegetarian sites as well -- e.g. some promote algae as a source of B-12, but this hasn't been proved), although most of the bad information is coming from the meat industry.

The meat industry is struggling today, particularly beef, so they seem to be hiring a lot of bloggers and consultants to advertise misinformation to improve their PR.

VBS2014 wrote:but with me, i need lean meat, in my diet, with me im getting all of my daily nutritionist, but one (protein) so i need that extra bit.

How tall are you? Most people only need about 60 grams of protein.

You are probably getting plenty of protein without meat, unless the rest of your diet is based on junk food.
In which case, lean meat won't help you; you need to change your diet to include more vegetables (which as I have said, are as high in protein as meat by dry weight, and often higher in protein per calorie).

Meat isn't actually a very good source of protein. Even lean meat is too high in saturated fat and cholesterol, and the type of protein in it becomes carcinogenic when it is cooked (creatine). Meat also contains carnitine, which causes heart disease when it is digested and converted into another form by gut bacteria, even without saturated fat:

http://www.nature.com/news/red-meat-wro ... ts-1.12746

Lean meat is simply not healthy. It is merely slightly healthier than full fat meat, which is to say it's slightly less unhealthy. But that's like saying that Mercury is healthier than Arsenic. Yes, it is slightly less lethal.


Better sources of protein are beans, green vegetables, and dark colored whole grains (NOT white rice).

VBS2014 wrote:and im only giving options to help people (mainy the people who eat meat 24 7) for getting better, and healthier

But switching to lean meat isn't very helpful; you might buy them a few months before they have a fatal stroke or heart attack. It will not reverse their conditions or save their lives, since it still promotes heart disease.

You're talking about people switching brands of cigarettes. We're talking about quitting smoking entirely.

Advising people to eat lean meat may seem like a good idea, but what if they are choosing between going vegetarian or not, and your advice makes them eat lean meat instead of going vegetarian? In that case, by providing worse advice that's easier to follow, you just hurt them.

The best advice is not the easiest advice. It's easy to switch to lean meat, but it's not very helpful. Quitting meat entirely is the best advice.

Eating meat is good for you. There is no general reason to avoid all meat consumption in order to benefit your health. Some foods should be avoided and this includes some meat products. Others should be eaten moderately. Obviously certain parts of animals shouldn't be consumed and even healthy meat can be prepared in unhealthy ways.
There are a few nutrients that are easier to obtain by eating meat. However as some people mentioned, there are alternative sources for these. Obviously man cannot survive on plants alone. Eat your minerals, algae, fungi, microbes containing/digested foods. Go for some Korean or Japanese food as they like their seaweeds and fermented dishes. Even if you eat meat, put these in your diet, too. A varied diet, while avoiding high-risk foods while moderating medium-risk foods is the best diet.

gogogadgetarms wrote:Eating meat is good for you.

Don't expect anyone to take you seriously on this forum unless you can back up your claims with some solid peer reviewed research.

gogogadgetarms wrote:Eating meat is good for you. There is no general reason to avoid all meat consumption in order to benefit your health. Some foods should be avoided and this includes some meat products. Others should be eaten moderately. Obviously certain parts of animals shouldn't be consumed and even healthy meat can be prepared in unhealthy ways.
There are a few nutrients that are easier to obtain by eating meat. However as some people mentioned, there are alternative sources for these. Obviously man cannot survive on plants alone. Eat your minerals, algae, fungi, microbes containing/digested foods. Go for some Korean or Japanese food as they like their seaweeds and fermented dishes. Even if you eat meat, put these in your diet, too. A varied diet, while avoiding high-risk foods while moderating medium-risk foods is the best diet.

You make a buttload of claims without any arguments or evidence to support them. A claim without evidence can be rejected without evidence; try again.

Jebus wrote:

gogogadgetarms wrote:Eating meat is good for you.

Don't expect anyone to take you seriously on this forum unless you can back up your claims with some solid peer reviewed research.

Okay. Here is a comprehensive study that claims vegetarians and people who only eat fish have an equally lower mortality rate than occasional meat eaters and vegans. Its a fairly comprehensive study. I have attached part of the abstract that present the findings. Please take a closer look to discover methodology and creditials.

Mortality from ischemic heart disease was 24% lower in vegetarians than in nonvegetarians (death rate ratio: 0.76; 95% CI: 0.62, 0.94; P<0.01). The lower mortality from ischemic heart disease among vegetarians was greater at younger ages and was restricted to those who had followed their current diet for >5 y. Further categorization of diets showed that, in comparison with regular meat eaters, mortality from ischemic heart disease was 20% lower in occasional meat eaters, 34% lower in people who ate fish but not meat, 34% lower in lactoovovegetarians, and 26% lower in vegans. There were no significant differences between vegetarians and nonvegetarians in mortality from cerebrovascular disease, stomach cancer, colorectal cancer, lung cancer, breast cancer, prostate cancer, or all other causes combined.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10479225

miniboes wrote:You make a buttload of claims

I have attempted to address the main argument. Which of my claims specifically require more support?
Meat is good for you? Varied diet? Moderation? Healthy means of cooking? Certain meats better than others? Man cannot live off plants alone?
I will admit the first requires elaboration some which I provided. The last is also a little general, however, I will leave that one up to anyone who claims they don't need any additional sources of nutrition to live healthy.