Philosophical Vegan Forum

Hi folks. I’m new to this forum, so apologies if this has been discussed before. I was wondering if I could get your thoughts on William Paley’s Watchmaker analogy which he uses to provide evidence for the existence of God. I became interested in this argument after learning that some very smart people such as Sir Isaac Newton had justified their belief in God with it.

Basically, Paley’s argument is that if a pocket watch was found on a heath, because of its intricate complexity, it can be inferred that the watch came about not by natural forces, but by design:

William Paley wrote:In crossing a heath, suppose I pitched my foot against a stone, and were asked how the stone came to be there; I might possibly answer, that, for anything I knew to the contrary, it had lain there forever: nor would it perhaps be very easy to show the absurdity of this answer. But suppose I had found a watch upon the ground, and it should be inquired how the watch happened to be in that place; I should hardly think of the answer I had before given, that for anything I knew, the watch might have always been there. ... There must have existed, at some time, and at some place or other, an artificer or artificers, who formed [the watch] for the purpose which we find it actually to answer; who comprehended its construction, and designed its use. ... Every indication of contrivance, every manifestation of design, which existed in the watch, exists in the works of nature; with the difference, on the side of nature, of being greater or more, and that in a degree which exceeds all computation.

Paley goes on to state that the intricate complexity in other things such as plants, animals, planets, etc. is even greater than that of a watch, and so just as we can infer that the watch came about not by natural forces but by intelligent design, we can infer the same of those things as well. And this proves the existence of an intelligent designer (God).

So yeah, what are your thoughts on Paley’s watchmaker analogy? Do you think it makes a compelling argument for the existence of God?

Hi, @Not The Real Jreg! Very interesting topic. Here are my thoughts:

A very good refutation of the watchmaker analogy can be found in the writings of David Hume, who in fact was not responding to Paley but to similar analogies before Paley had even developed his argument.

Hume observed that even if these arguments prove the universe was designed, there is no evidence from it that it was designed by the Christian God, as Paley claims it was. The designer does not have to be all-good, all-powerful or all-knowing. There may have been many designers, in fact. As well as that, the designer or designers may have actually died a long time ago. Hume suggested that like effects have like causes, and so it is more likely that the universe (if it was designed) was designed by a limited designer.

Furthermore, Hume noted the existence of evil and imperfection in the world, which suggests that if it was designed, there was a limited designer. Hume asked how an all-powerful, all-loving God could allow evil to happen. If they weren’t able to stop it, then they aren’t all powerful. If they didn’t want to stop it, then they aren’t all-loving. Hume attributed this paradox to Epicurus (although this may be a misattribution as Epicurus was not an atheist, and none of his extant writings have this paradox; if he did come up with this paradox, it wasn’t to prove that God didn’t exist).

Hume went on to state that the analogy between the universe and a watch is unsound. The universe is more like a vegetable, which grows itself. This is backed by the theory of evolution which states that life developed itself via a blind process of natural selection. Richard Dawkins, in his book “The Blind Watchmaker” states that the argument fails for this reason, and that evolution ought to replace God as the “watchmaker”.

Hume also states that the analogy of a watch to the universe is anthropomorphism. We have experience of watch making, however we do not have experience of universe making, and there is no reason for us to believe that the universe was made in the same way as a watch. Furthermore, Hume states that the universe may have simply come about by chance. He bases this off of Epicurus’ idea that the world was made up of indivisible atoms. Hume postulated that if an infinite number of atoms flew around for an infinite amount of time, they would eventually arrive at a comparatively ordered state. A more modern version of the Epicurean hypothesis can be found in the multiverse theory. If there are an infinite amount of universes, one of them will be bound to have the appearance of design.

I look forward to discussing with you further.

@Not The Real JReg Thank you for that, but I am not convinced.

You say that Hume didn’t develop his argument as a refutation to William Paley. So how can it be relevant to Paley’s watchmaker analogy? It doesn’t make any sense. I’m going to need better than that to refute an argument which geniuses like Newton accepted.

Not The Real JReg wrote: ↑Tue Apr 14, 2020 9:41 am You say that Hume didn’t develop his argument as a refutation to William Paley. So how can it be relevant to Paley’s watchmaker analogy?

Paley was not the first person to come up with the analogy of a watchmaker. You mentioned Sir Isaac Newton, who died before Paley was even born. Hume was responding to people who made more or less the same argument as Paley, and therefore it is a relevant response.

I’m going to need better than that to refute an argument which geniuses like Newton accepted.

Newton also believed in the existence of the philosopher’s stone. Very intelligent people can be wrong about things, you know.

Not The Real JReg wrote: ↑Tue Apr 14, 2020 9:42 am

Not The Real JReg wrote: ↑Tue Apr 14, 2020 9:41 am You say that Hume didn’t develop his argument as a refutation to William Paley. So how can it be relevant to Paley’s watchmaker analogy?

Paley was not the first person to come up with the analogy of a watchmaker. You mentioned Sir Isaac Newton, who died before Paley was even born. Hume was responding to people who made more or less the same argument as Paley, and therefore it is a relevant response.

I’m going to need better than that to refute an argument which geniuses like Newton accepted.

Newton also believed in the existence of the philosopher’s stone. Very intelligent people can be wrong about things, you know.

Yeah? Well, I think that you’re a big stinky doo doo head.

Not The Real JReg wrote: ↑Tue Apr 14, 2020 9:43 am Yeah? Well, I think that you’re a big stinky doo doo head.

This kind of post isn’t allowed on this forum. See rule one:

This is a discussion forum. Please come here willing to discuss. This isn't a place to lecture, and then refuse to address others' rational arguments or even answer others' questions.

Not The Real JReg wrote: ↑Tue Apr 14, 2020 9:43 am

Not The Real JReg wrote: ↑Tue Apr 14, 2020 9:43 am Yeah? Well, I think that you’re a big stinky doo doo head.

This kind of post isn’t allowed on this forum. See rule one:

This is a discussion forum. Please come here willing to discuss. This isn't a place to lecture, and then refuse to address others' rational arguments or even answer others' questions.

Shut up fatty! You voted for Obama!

Not The Real JReg wrote: ↑Tue Apr 14, 2020 9:44 am Shut up fatty! You voted for Obama!

Obama is one of the greatest Presidents of all time. You only hate him because he is black. I bet you support Trump, racist!

Not The Real JReg wrote: ↑Tue Apr 14, 2020 9:44 am Obama is one of the greatest Presidents of all time. You only hate him because he is black. I bet you support Trump, racist!

You’re goddamn right I support OUR PRESIDENT Trump. And no, I don’t hate Obama because he is black, I hate him because he wrecked this country. Now, that Trump is President, our economy is doing better than ever. We will beat your liberal asses in November so go cry about it. #MAGA

Not The Real JReg wrote: ↑Tue Apr 14, 2020 9:45 am You’re goddamn right I support OUR PRESIDENT Trump. And no, I don’t hate Obama because he is black, I hate him because he wrecked this country. Now, that Trump is President, our economy is doing better than ever. We will beat your liberal asses in November so go cry about it. #MAGA

As if! Biden is going to win and he will fix the damage that DRUMPF has caused. #Resist