Philosophical Vegan Forum

Let me start by saying I support the Black Lives Matter movement.

I've seen this over and over on social media: someone posts a vegan meme and then people jump on them saying some variation of "now is not the time for that, this about black lives right now."

Not that I disagree with that sentiment, but when will be the right time to promote veganism again? When change is enacted? What if that takes years or never happens? When the media stops covering it? What if the media stops covering it but no real change has happened?

There are atrocities happening all over the world as we speak (Yemeni famine, Libyan civil war, Congo massacre, child mortality) that no one gives a shit about because the media doesn't cover them. Are we supposed to be silent on these issues too because it's not the right time?

I'd give it about 2 weeks to a month.

This may sound cynical, but I think that this BLM activism thing isn't going to last long; I've noticed social media activism is a trend of being intensely passionate about a single issue, then completely forgetting about it then moving on to the next hot topic. It's the activist du jour if you will. That isn't to say social media activism is completely useless, I think it's been useful in getting people to stay home, but in terms of institutional or global issues like climate change, it's fairly impotent. Speaking of climate change, remember the climate strike a few months back? Did anything come of it? I guess when we don't see any visible changes immediately, we stop giving a fuck.

I mean, I hope I'm wrong and something good comes of these protests (which are a terrible idea in the midst of a pandemic), but I remain skeptical; I'm not sure if the protests will accomplish anything meaningful.

And I like your point about how there is so much injustice in the world, yet this is what we get angry about. I remember a friend of mine asked me about the Floyd incident "Aren't you angry?" Angry? Why should I be angry? Should I be angry about every injustice that happens in the world? What about all the black people starving, dying of disease, facing civil unrest? Oh, they're far away and can't visibly see their suffering so it doesn't matter so I don't have to be angry about that?

I don't think getting angry about it useful anyway since we don't act rationally when angry; We should calm down, take a step back, and ask, "OK, here's the issue, what can we do to solve this?"

I know I'm sounding sanctimonious here, so I apologize for that. I don't have anywhere else to write this since if I post this on my Snapstagram or whatever, that risks alienating my high school friends.

Welcome to SJW culture.Some people are so proud for not being racist that they try to take every opportunity to demonstrate this admirable characteristic to the rest of the world.

Yes, it is unfortunate that black people in the U.S. have to experience racism. However, they are still some of the most privileged people in the world.

If reduction of human injustice is the main goal, then one should focus on those, mainly in developing countries, who are severely oppressed, both socially and economically. But, as always, people in the developed world are for some reason considered more important.

I don't hear anyone in the BLM movement come up with suggestions on how to make things better. Yelling out "end racism" won't make racists stop being racists. The civil rights movement for black people have made huge strides in the last 60 years end they will likely continue to do so. I seriously doubt BLM is speeding things up.

Here is my suggestion in light of current events: Have the entire U.S. police force go through both awareness and action training and end the culture of cops covering for each other in cases of excess brutality. Every race will benefit if racial profiling and police brutality are reduced.

Please keep forwarding those vegan memes. Not only is animal oppression an even bigger problem than racism, but it is also much easier to make a positive impact.

PunkRockVegan wrote: ↑Sat Jun 06, 2020 12:53 pm I've seen this over and over on social media: someone posts a vegan meme and then people jump on them saying some variation of "now is not the time for that, this about black lives right now."

Even supporting the current social movement doesn't mean you can't care about anything else. That sentiment people are expressing is asinine and beyond that incredibly rude. Is saying something positive about animal welfare really *worse* than saying nothing to them?
You can support two things at once, and you can focus your time on one or the other without meaning you don't care about other issues.

Might as well respond to anybody posting a BLM meme: "now is not the time for that, this about COVID right now."
Arguably a global pandemic is a lot bigger than police brutality.

No social issue can claim such a high ground over all others to actively disparage another movement and condemn people who dare care about it (there's room for argument about some things being more important, but that's a complex philosophical argument and that's not what these people are doing).

PunkRockVegan wrote: ↑Sat Jun 06, 2020 12:53 pmbut when will be the right time to promote veganism again? When change is enacted? What if that takes years or never happens? When the media stops covering it? What if the media stops covering it but no real change has happened?

It's always the time to promote veganism just like it's always the time to oppose police brutality if that's the issue you're experienced with.
I have experience with the vegan arguments, I have much less with the politics and psychology of the current issue with police (aside to know that following the models of other countries like not having officers routinely carry guns is probably a good idea). I'm not experienced with the rhetoric or with making arguments in those cases. It would be incredibly counter-productive to take months off discussing veganism and moral philosophy merely to learn about these issues and then possibly contribute something at the tail end.

And when this dies down is kind of the first of either a policy change that satisfies people or a certain amount of time (and likely people getting back to work after COVID).

PunkRockVegan wrote: ↑Sat Jun 06, 2020 12:53 pmThere are atrocities happening all over the world as we speak (Yemeni famine, Libyan civil war, Congo massacre, child mortality) that no one gives a shit about because the media doesn't cover them. Are we supposed to be silent on these issues too because it's not the right time?

Of course not, all issues are important at all times if they're causing suffering. Anybody trying to silence somebody like that whose area is another field of activism is an asshole first and foremost and doesn't deserve to be called an activist (actual discussion with reasoned arguments for why X is better than Y is another matter).
Activists are not compelled to support each other and abandon their causes to jump into another when demanded to, but they also shouldn't act like this in sabotaging and shaming other activists with shallow quips.

I agree with the above comments, and I’ll add that much of what the Black Lives Matter movement is doing is preaching to choir, as @Jebus mentioned. Most black people in America know that the odds are stacked against them in some ways. And the non-blacks who are hash-tagging this across social media know it as well.

The people who would benefit most from this revelation are the ones who don't give a damn (you know, racists). And unfortunately, burning down businesses, exchanging depressing platitudes about the “struggles” of being black in America, and making vague statements of solidarity on social media isn’t going to ameliorate the issue.

The criminal justice system is indeed unjust is many ways, but there are actually some reasonable solutions mentioned by @brimstoneSalad and others to help mitigate the issue. Besides retiring the racist policies like stop-and-frisk that unfairly target blacks, requiring the use of body cams, and removing guns, there are actually pretty simple evidence-based policies that dramatically reduce police brutality in ALL communities. https://8cantwait.org

On the issue of “activists” telling you to “shut up” about non BLM issues, I think those people are not only incredibly stupid but also hypocritical. There is a MUCH bigger issue that poses a threat to a MUCH greater pool of people globally: COVID-19. And there are concerns that the sites of massive protests could become hotspots for the transmission of the virus. Oh yeah, and how did this pandemic come about? Animal agriculture (poor conditions at wet markets to be exact).

There are definitely separate and more severe issues to talk bout in conjunction with the broken criminal justice system in the United States. Telling people to shut up about other issues does not appear to help anyone.

brimstoneSalad wrote:It would be incredibly counter-productive to take months off discussing veganism and moral philosophy merely to learn about these issues and then possibly contribute something at the tail end.

I couldn't disagree more. I think being educated about various topics gives you an incredible advantage when promoting veganism. Especially if you are educated about something the intellectuals value, such as linguistics. Intellectuals don't value knowledge about cults, and veganism is widely perceived as a cult.
It also seems to me that, for some reason, intellectuals value being able to talk about veganism in Latin even more than knowing much about nutritional science.

teo123 wrote: ↑Sat Jun 20, 2020 12:49 pm

brimstoneSalad wrote:It would be incredibly counter-productive to take months off discussing veganism and moral philosophy merely to learn about these issues and then possibly contribute something at the tail end.

I couldn't disagree more. I think being educated about various topics gives you an incredible advantage when promoting veganism. Especially if you are educated about something the intellectuals value, such as linguistics. Intellectuals don't value knowledge about cults, and veganism is widely perceived as a cult.
It also seems to me that, for some reason, intellectuals value being able to talk about veganism in Latin even more than knowing much about nutritional science.

I think you missed the plot here Teo. The key there is "tail end". Latin isn't going anywhere, and neither is physics or a number of other subject matters that could contribute usefully to empirical discussion or just as a way to get people into the discussion. This movement has an expiration date, people aren't going to care about this in a few months after some token reforms are put into place or after they get back to work and stop being so stressed and bored over COVID.

I know nobody gives a fuck about BLM anymore and this is all kind of irrelevant, but I think Yourofsky has an (overall) good video on the subject and how it relates to veganism:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y173FIuhLbU

I wanted to share this a couple months ago but I kinda forgot.

He makes a mix of some pretty good points and some really bad ones (like saying black lives matter more than white lives, saying people who care about human rights issues are 'worshiping at the altar of humanity,' saying Vegans are wrong in valuing human life over animal life (I'm not sure if he knows what speciesism really means), and just the general misanthropic tone).

I think Yourofsky's best point in the video is about how people are oh so concerned about not offending certain groups by not using any slurs or anything else that might be considered offensive to blacks, LGBTQ+ people and other groups, yet nobody really gives a shit about the rights of the beings that Vegans stand up for, nor do they really give much consideration to how they feel when they see people consuming animal products. I think what adds insult to injury is that animals are FAR more oppressed than these groups (that isn't to say they don't have issues to work out), but since consumption of animal products is something even socially progressive people take part in, the concerns of Vegans is never taken into account.

However, I don't agree with Yourofsky that being a misanthrope in response is at all useful, though I can understand why he views it that way. He does know though that Veganism is also a human rights issue, so people who advocate for veganism to help human rights concerns will also help animals in the process; Focusing on human rights isn't always taking away from animal rights. I think Yourofsky ALWAYS treats veganism as THE moral baseline, which isn't always a bad thing, but he takes it too far, especially here. Focusing JUST on animal issues would severely stifle moral progress, although to be fair we aren't really being effective on that front; We worry far too much about the rights of the already privileged first-world blacks, gays, etc. and forget that billions of others have it far worse, as we've already discussed.

Also his stances on retribution and justice are completely asinine, but that's another issue.

I thought he retired? Is this a new one?

brimstoneSalad wrote: ↑Mon Jan 18, 2021 10:45 pm I thought he retired? Is this a new one?

He's returned to the YouTube gig after COVID hit, but now he seems so much more bitter and resentful. He makes some good points in his new videos, but of course, he takes it too far at times, like I've already explained.