Philosophical Vegan Forum

I'm just very curious, I understand things like malarial mosquitos might be morally acceptable to kill, but what about mice, flies on your food, a rabid animal in your house, etc?

Well if the animal is clearly rabid, it's going to die very soon anyway right? So better to kill it so that it doesn't infect anyone else. Also, it doesn't sound pleasant to have rabies.

If it's just one fly, just shake your food, and it'll fly away. If there are more, you probably wouldn't be able to kill them all anyway. I'd just sit somewhere else.

If they're in your house: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VCgx51gVKJ8

There are ethical mouse traps for mice infestations.

It's more important to prevent pests so they don't have to be killed.

The wrong that was done is in the failure of prevention. The killing, when not prevented, is often made a necessity.

Keep a clean house and you won't get an infestation.

Rabid animals should be put down, whether in your house or not.
Likewise, mosquitoes and other serious disease vectors, unless you're out in the wild where nobody else will be affected by them.

there are other issues such as non-native animals like cane toads in Australia. I find this issue particularly hard to deal with.

bobo0100 wrote:there are other issues such as non-native animals like cane toads in Australia. I find this issue particularly hard to deal with.

These are grey areas, where there is both good and bad to killing them. It's something you'd pretty much just have to do the research on and decide for yourself.

The black and white areas are what are most important. E.g. eating animals products is nothing but bad. Bad for you, bad for the animals, bad for the environment. That's an obvious answer. Not all things are so obvious.

Killing toads in Australia to protect local wildlife? It could be a good thing or a bad thing.

One of the most important points is that if you're killing cane toads to protect the environment, you aren't doing it selfishly: it isn't for you, it's for others. So that, in itself, will help you think a little more objectively on the subject. When one has a selfish interest in an action, one is more inclined to be biased (e.g. the desire to eat animal products because of personal enjoyment). Nobody really wants to go around killing toads (at least nobody who isn't a psychopath), so if you're doing it, you're more likely doing it for honest reasons.

brimstoneSalad wrote:Nobody really wants to go around killing toads (at least nobody who isn't a psychopath)

Well from this comment I can tell you are not informed in Australian culture. It is common for Aussies to brag about how far they whacked a toad in "cane toad golf" or to exchange stories of horrible acts committed against toads, such as we strapped it to a firecracker, or its guts went everywhere. In many nationhoods, including my own the streets while made of tar are plated with flattened cane toads in the same sense that; rings, cutlery, or trophies are plated in gold. "Let's go cane toad hunting" is a common phrase from children up. It is clear to insiders that toads are animals not considered worthy of moral consideration on any level. Not to change the topic but many of the evils commuted against them are committed also against fish, in the same terms to.

To make matters worse speaking out against such practices, for much more humane methods such as freezing, is equivalent to trying to justify Hitler actions.

bobo0100 wrote: Well from this comment I can tell you are not informed in Australian culture. It is common for Aussies to brag about how far they whacked a toad in "cane toad golf" or to exchange stories of horrible acts committed against toads, such as we strapped it to a firecracker, or its guts went everywhere.

Yeah, sounds like a lot of borderline psychopathic little brats.

However, I will note that there's a certain catharsis in vengeance, and brutal harm done with justification of self-righteousness to relieve guilt. This is also, in part, human nature.
If Australians perceive can toads as evil -- due to their invasive nature and destruction of local environment by poisoning Australian animals that eat them, etc. -- their pretext of righteousness may numb the sense of empathy they might otherwise be capable of.

bobo0100 wrote:To make matters worse speaking out against such practices, for much more humane methods such as freezing, is equivalent to trying to justify Hitler actions.

It isn't, really.
Hitler's actions against the Jews and others were irrational.
Destruction of cane toads isn't necessarily irrational, given evidence of their environmental consequences as invasive species.
Yes, Hitler saw Jews in the same way, but he was not correct in this -- it's a difference between Hitler's religious pseudoscience, and actual environmental science.

That's like equating astrology and astronomy.

brimstoneSalad wrote:It isn't, really.

It's almost universally accepted that freezing is a less painful way to go. The toad does not know it's going to die so stress is not an issue, and it's not experiencing pain in the form of burning or hitting. It also has the added advantage of a 100% death rate where as cane toad golf may leave a livening toad.

bobo0100 wrote:

brimstoneSalad wrote:It isn't, really.

It's almost universally accepted that freezing is a less painful way to go. The toad does not know it's going to die so stress is not an issue, and it's not experiencing pain in the form of burning or hitting. It also has the added advantage of a 100% death rate where as cane toad golf may leave a livening toad.

Oh, I thought you were comparing freezing toads to something Hitler would do, not advocating it.

Ideally one could euthanise them with some kind of anaesthetic like co2 or halothane after being caught, but the ground realities I doubt that that would be economical. At least one should try to do it with minimum suffering but I think native wildlife interests does take precedence over the invasive species.
Re Other pests I have trapped a mouse that once snuck in from an open window and released it elsewhere after being caught.