Philosophical Vegan Forum

Hya. Russian from Ukraine here.
5 months anarchist
1 year antinatalist/efilist
2 years abolitionist vegan+WFPB
3 or more years low waste
10 years vegetarian
~20 years antitheist/antiauthoritarian
~30 years atheist/alive

On other less important questions like determinism, it's less set in stone.

Some normative ethics systems I think I like:
Rule consequentialism
Two-level consequentialism
Negative consequentialism/utilitarianism
less so:
Threshold deontology
Preferentialism
Ethical altruism

Hello Armoreska, welcome to the forum.
I'm guessing the ethical systems are what prompted you to go veg. Is it difficult being vegan in Ukraine?

We'd also like to discuss your stances on Anarchism and Anti-natalism; Feel free to look at some of the threads we have on the subjects, or start one yourself!

Welcome, what makes you like negative utilitarianism and dislike altruism?

Red wrote: ↑Sat Oct 03, 2020 11:33 am Hello Armoreska, welcome to the forum.
I'm guessing the ethical systems are what prompted you to go veg. Is it difficult being vegan in Ukraine?

We'd also like to discuss your stances on Anarchism and Anti-natalism; Feel free to look at some of the threads we have on the subjects, or start one yourself!

Nah I went vegan before starting getting to know anything about the philosophy, just after watching Earthlings on May 27 2018 when I finally found out what veganism was all about, and then found Gary Yourofsky's speech, after that I upped my youtube, facebook and social game (Now subbed to up to 600 YT channels). So found other threads to pursue.

Originally went vegetarian for ethical reasons after watching a few documentaries: Food Inc and Blood of the Beasts. I can boast a dangerously low B12 result. Thankfully I can actually afford it nowadays, so it has recovered within range.

It's hard to say what constitutes difficult. It could definitely be difficult to cook WFPB and go to work 9-to-6. But I would say life is generally difficult.
Vegan life in general is a process. I eat low cost food and beyond that live a low budget lifestyle too.
There's vegan shampoo & soap produced in a nearby city that's somewhat affordable.

I know someone who cooks some of those products at home (you can find her via #veganarchism tag in IG)

brimstoneSalad wrote: ↑Sat Oct 03, 2020 12:50 pm Welcome, what makes you like negative utilitarianism and dislike altruism?

I didn't say I dislike it, just less fond of the approach. They're still better than whatever I left out of that list.
NU or NC just seems logical based on my experience.
I like what this guy wrote:
http://jiwoonhwang.org/pro-mortalism/

Armoreska wrote: ↑Sat Oct 03, 2020 1:33 pm Nah I went vegan before starting getting to know anything about the philosophy, just after watching Earthlings on May 27 2018 when I finally found out what veganism was all about, and then found Gary Yourofsky's speech, after that I upped my youtube, facebook and social game (Now subbed to up to 600 YT channels). So found other threads to pursue.

What's your channel name? I'm assuming Armoreksa?

I think Yourofsky's speech overall was great (and it has had quite an impact, apparently it made about a million people in Israel go Vegan), but there are some bad arguments in there, such as humans are herbivores (which is an appeal to nature) and gross-out arguments (which are pretty subjective).

Armoreska wrote: ↑Sat Oct 03, 2020 1:33 pmOriginally went vegetarian for ethical reasons after watching a few documentaries: Food Inc and Blood of the Beasts. I can boast a dangerously low B12 result. Thankfully I can actually afford it nowadays, so it has recovered within range.

Do you take a supplement? I'm not sure what the situation is like over there.

Armoreska wrote: ↑Sat Oct 03, 2020 1:33 pmIt's hard to say what constitutes difficult. It could definitely be difficult to cook WFPB and go to work 9-to-6. But I would say life is generally difficult.

I hear that Europe in general, both west and east, are pretty open to vegetarianism, with countries like Sweden having up to 10% of their population vegetarian. Of course, it's a bit easier in the West.

Armoreska wrote: ↑Sat Oct 03, 2020 1:33 pm There's vegan shampoo & soap produced in a nearby city that's somewhat affordable.

Is it the tallow you're worried about?

I wouldn't be too concerned about that, since tallow is a by-product; cows aren't being farmed for their tallow. If they didn't have tallow, they'd use something else.

Armoreska wrote: ↑Sat Oct 03, 2020 1:33 pmI know someone who cooks some of those products at home (you can find her via #veganarchism tag in IG)

I'll take a look when I get a chance.

Armoreska wrote: ↑Sat Oct 03, 2020 1:45 pm

brimstoneSalad wrote: ↑Sat Oct 03, 2020 12:50 pm Welcome, what makes you like negative utilitarianism and dislike altruism?

I didn't say I dislike it, just less fond of the approach. They're still better than whatever I left out of that list.
NU or NC just seems logical based on my experience.
I like what this guy wrote:
http://jiwoonhwang.org/pro-mortalism/

I assume that's why you support anti-natalism?

Start a discussion on that if you'd like, that'd be a pretty interesting one.

Red wrote: ↑Sat Oct 03, 2020 1:47 pm

Armoreska wrote: ↑Sat Oct 03, 2020 1:45 pm

brimstoneSalad wrote: ↑Sat Oct 03, 2020 12:50 pm Welcome, what makes you like negative utilitarianism and dislike altruism?

I didn't say I dislike it, just less fond of the approach. They're still better than whatever I left out of that list.
NU or NC just seems logical based on my experience.
I like what this guy wrote:
http://jiwoonhwang.org/pro-mortalism/

I assume that's why you support anti-natalism?

Start a discussion on that if you'd like, that'd be a pretty interesting one.

I think my first encounter with antinatalism was either via Facebook's groups (I joined Anti-Natalist Vegans) or via a post on a film forum 1 year ago (by someone who's since announced switching to veganism). Either way it seems it was inevitable. I've made a russian-language group on Facebook.

I'm sure you've discussed it before. btw I've visited this forum a few times before because of Francione-related posts that pop up on Google.

Welcome Armoreska,

I don't get the anarchist stuff, but I agree with you on all other points. I've been doing low waste myself for the past year or so.

Red wrote: ↑Sat Oct 03, 2020 1:46 pmI think Yourofsky's speech overall was great (and it has had quite an impact, apparently it made about a million people in Israel go Vegan), but there are some bad arguments in there, such as humans are herbivores (which is an appeal to nature) and gross-out arguments (which are pretty subjective).

Yourofsky didn't had much information to lean upon when he made that speech. He has since talked back some of the things he said, such as eggs being chicken periods and that there are no vegan rapists. The human being herbivore argument, I think, is quite good. First of all it is true that human anatomy is much closer to an extreme herbivore than an extreme carnivore on the continuum. Many people are impressed when nature arguments are invoked. It's actually what got me to stop eating meat some 20 years ago.

Armoreska wrote: ↑Sat Oct 03, 2020 1:33 pm There's vegan shampoo & soap produced in a nearby city that's somewhat affordable.

Shampoo is highly unnecessary. There are lots of ways to keep your hair clean without it. You should learn how to make your own soap. It seems like the only affordable way to avoid palm oil.

Jebus wrote: ↑Sun Oct 04, 2020 8:34 am Yourofsky didn't had much information to lean upon when he made that speech. He has since talked back some of the things he said, such as eggs being chicken periods and that there are no vegan rapists.

Yeah I read that on his website. It's good to see him retract some things but he does have his share of pseudosciences, like being irrationally anti-B12 supplement (and he's against supplemenation in general), and cited fucking NaturalNews.com of all websites to support his argument.

Jebus wrote: ↑Sun Oct 04, 2020 8:34 am The human being herbivore argument, I think, is quite good. First of all it is true that human anatomy is much closer to an extreme herbivore than an extreme carnivore on the continuum. Many people are impressed when nature arguments are invoked. It's actually what got me to stop eating meat some 20 years ago.

Again, while it may be true, it's still an appeal to nature argument. Kind of like when evangelicals say homosexuality is unnatural because we were anatomically designed to reproduce via straight sex. Can be a slippery slope in some ways.

Now whether not the argument is effective is different, if people will be convinced that way, I may support it (again though, it could lead to a slippery slope), but the argument in and of itself is based on the fallacy.

wiki/index.php/Bad_Arguments_for_vegani ... Herbivores