Philosophical Vegan Forum

https://twitter.com/c0nc0rdance/status/ ... 80?lang=de

some animals eat grass on a field an dont need agriculture. How can we say for example eating eggs or drinking milk is wrong when critters die for our soy food?

This has been debunked so many times during so many years. Do a quick Google search and you will see.

Corelich wrote:https://twitter.com/c0nc0rdance/status/ ... 80?lang=de

some animals eat grass on a field an dont need agriculture. How can we say for example eating eggs or drinking milk is wrong when critters die for our soy food?

Why do you suppose that owning and using animals against their will is acceptable? We don't need milk or eggs to be healthy, quite the contrary, and so what would be the motivation to consume them? Entertainment of palate?

Sorry, my english is probably not that good since this is my 3rd language.

Jebus wrote:This has been debunked so many times during so many years. Do a quick Google search and you will see.

What is debunked? That animals die because of agriculture? Don't think so. Sure its far less then animals get killed for animal based food but they still get killed.

http://www.animalvisuals.org/projects/data/1mc
Dunno how reliable this statistic is, but they allegedly show that animals die from agriculture. And yes for milk aswell, even more so. Mainly due for harvest reasons. My guess is this number is far lower for range land cows.

TheVeganAtheist wrote: Why do you suppose that owning and using animals against their will is acceptable? We don't need milk or eggs to be healthy, quite the contrary, and so what would be the motivation to consume them? Entertainment of palate?

I actually don't. But in an argument against somebody who drinks milk from cows who live on range land, he can claim that animals die from agriculture and thus drinking milk is not worse then eating soy. im not quite sure how to defeat this argument. For most people the ownage of animals isnt seen as bad as long as the animals are not held in bad conditions.

Not quite my position since i try to become vegan for ethical purposes. But since i change my lifestile right now a lot of people argue with me and some of their arguments don't seem so far fetched.

Corelich wrote: What is debunked? That animals die because of agriculture? Don't think so. Sure its far less then animals get killed for animal based food but they still get killed.

The number is very low, and they are mostly killed by predators when the cover of the crops is removed and the mice, etc. are exposed (mostly by predatory birds).

Corelich wrote: My guess is this number is far lower for range land cows.

Lower, maybe. The number is very low as it is. If you compare calorie to calorie (or gram of protein to gram of protein), you find fewer animals die in making vegan food.

And that is ignoring all of the greenhouse gas, contribution to global warming, and negative health effects from milk, eggs, and meat.

Corelich wrote: I actually don't. But in an argument against somebody who drinks milk from cows who live on range land, he can claim that animals die from agriculture and thus drinking milk is not worse then eating soy.

Well, it's worse for your health and the environment. If you're only drinking milk, and not killing the cow, and not killing the calves, it's still not clear that fewer animals are killed, considering the number than the cow eats and steps on. These things are hard to track.

But it's not an argument for eating meat, or eating dairy, or even eating free-range grass fed no-kill dairy, because it's not a sustainable or viable alternative to vegetable food. Nobody actually drinks that kind of milk.

Corelich wrote:What is debunked? That animals die because of agriculture? Don't think so. Sure its far less then animals get killed for animal based food but they still get killed.

Sure, some animals die from agriculture but these numbers have been greatly exaggerated. Either way, this can never be used as an argument against veganism as long as the majority of grain production is used to feed livestock.

What do you think happens to old hens who don't lay eggs anymore?
What do you think happends to male new born chicken babys?

What do you think happends to older cows once their milk production decreases?
Did you know that cows get raped every year or otherwise they wouldn't give milk?
What do you think happends to the majority of the newborn calves?
Did you know they usually get seperated from their mothers right after birth?
Can you imagine how cruel it is to steal a baby from her mother?
Cow and calf meat is just a byproduct of the milk industry.

Do you think its comfortable to lay 300 eggs a year in comparison of the 20 of a "wild" chicken?
Do you think its comfortable to give 10 000 L of milk a year with tits hanging to your knees?

What do you think do chickens eat?
Even free ranged "organic" cows get around 10% soy or grain in their diet to increase milk production. Thats roughly the amount of soy you need for soy milk.
Only 3% of the extracted soy is used for vegan food. The remaining 97% is eaten by cows, pigs and chickens.

I could continue with environmental problems, health issues and living conditions.