Philosophical Vegan Forum

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Context: Fictional comedy with clipped together sound bites. It’s supposed to be cheesy to make fun out of the fact Vaush hates talking about veganism. Hunter Avallone and Shoeonhead are two YouTube friends of his. The year is 2026 to imagine they’ve both gone vegan. Let me know what edits you’d make.

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Scene 1. Year 2026 Hunter and Shoe are working a food not bombs stall

Sarah Conner (Terminator 2): June 21st, 2026. Judgement day.

Shoe: Jee it sure is nice to be living a low-impact vegan lifestyle, so massively reducing the harm we cause to other people and animals.

Hunter: I know, at least now I don't have to feel guilty about not wanting to watch that slaughterhouse footage. And it's great to be getting out and directly helping people whilst changing hearts and minds.

Shoe: Yeah there's no way we could reach as many people as guys like Vaush do with his youtube channel and based debate skills, but we all play our part.

Hunter: Totally, and it's great to see all the new people through the doors of the activist resource centre who said they were radicalized by Vaush.

Shoe: For sure, I just wish more of them would join us out here feeding the hungry, talking about our country’s unethical food system and arms sales. But, I guess a lot of them have bought into his line about there being no individual moral responsibility for our consumption under capitalism.

Hunter: Yeah, it's sad too because he understands the importance of going vegan, so if he could just push through that initial period where your taste buds change he could be learning to appreciate so much banging eastern food, plus be a lot healthier and happier for it.

Shoe: What if we invited him to go swimming with us at the beach and get him hooked on being fit and eating well?

[Cut to all the times Vaush has said he hates going outside.]

Shoe and Hunter: No, that won't work.

[Both phones buzz, as they look down they see a breaking news alert: “Bill passes into law guaranteeing free access to previously classified technology which allows people to design and enter others dreams for the radical potential it holdor people to be fully immersed into mind expanding philosophical thought experiments.”]

Shoe and Hunter: Bingo.

[1 week later]


Scene 2. Hunter and Shoe arrive at Vaush's house

Hunter: Yo, we've built the sickest dreamscape for you, you down for this challenge?

Vaush: Alright, let's do this.


Scene 3. Vaush, Hyena, Conya, Shoe are all in a campervan driving to the beach.

Shoe: This beach party is gonna be a-mazing.

Conya: Oh shit, Hunter just texted asking if he could get a lift.

Vaush: Aw man, you know how much I hate driving back.

Conya: I know, but you know how skint he is at the moment, so I’m sure he could really use a break from it all.

Vaush: Okay, he is my friend, I wouldn't want to, aha, do a classism by excluding him.

[A few moments later]

Vaush: Yo, my man, how’ you doin?

Hunter: I'm good, thanks so much for the ride.

Shoe: I’ve got us covered on the soy sausages for the barbeque.

Hunter: Nice, yeah I haven’t had a barbeque in forever. I’ve just been doing a lot of cooking whole foods at home to save money, but I’ve learnt so many new recipes and food cultures.

Vaush: Fair dos, how long did it take for that to settle in?

Hunter: Yeah it definitely wasn’t overnight. I mean you know me and Shoe have been getting more into doing street advocacy, but I wouldn't automatically judge someone who was in a bad living situation and didn't have the headspace for it.

Vaush: Oh shit, sounds like you think I’m still on the hook though aha.

Hunter: Aha well I guess I just think we should all be challenging ourselves to make the world a better place. The justification that you’re doing enough already and don’t need to change is a fairly standard psychological vice, but obviously one we can out grow.

Vaush: I dunno, I fucking live for dairy, I’m lactose intolerant and I eat so much dairy every day and it’s all worth it.

Hunter: Well think of it this way, the same way it would be a small mark against your character if you failed to put the extra effort into showing up for your friends, we ought to put the effort into resisting a culture which normalises meat eating.

Vaush: Is it really fair to judge someone as morally bad if they’ve been brainwashed by wall to wall advertising telling them meat eating is essential?

We need to be moving the narrative onto the systemic change we can make.

(all nod, but then…)

Shoe: But! Would it not be equally dangerous, if we didn’t challenge each other to do better?

(Insert funny example, c’mon man, look at when I stopped you ….)

Also, we know all we need is an active enough minority to generate the public will for legislation and food co-ops, on the way to a vegan world. Which will make healthy living choices the norm much faster.

Hunter: I understand that desire for there to be clear lines about what is and isn’t a moral obligation, but I think you know you would judge yourself if you stopped caring about anyone outside your circle of family and friends.

Vaush: true, true...

Hunter: Like say you won the lottery tomorrow and spent it all over a weekend on luxury items, you would feel guilty every time you saw a good cause or campaign you could have helped.

Vaush: no doubt...

Hunter: So, if we can admit we ought to donate some amount of spare cash to campaigns & charities under capitalism at some point in our life because it would help bring about a better world then;

(Vaush looks at Hunter willing him to find the ‘then statement’)

Hunter: ... we inherently are advocating individuals reduce their harmful consumption under capitalism to have the spare cash to donate to campaigns & charities.

(Vaush looks thoughtful but ready to be persuaded)

Hunter: Therefore it’s worth advocating that individuals reduce their harmful consumption and it’s worth drawing people’s attention to which consumer boycotts most effectively help bring about a world with higher total well-being in it, including veganism.

(Vaush, opens mouth to speak but Hunter presses on)

Hunter: But if you need to experience that intuition for yourself, here goes, computer run scenario 2.

Vaush: Wait, what?


Scene 4: Vaush experiences winning the lottery and spending it all on a weekend bender

BLM: You wasted all your winnings while people out here are dying?


Scene 5: Exits dreamscape and is back home

Vaush: (Forehead sweating) Alright, I’m convinced, I’ll go vegan.


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Writing Process

Need to break up some of the arguments at the end so there's more of a back and forth.

Needs more memes for laughs.

I could include this hypothetical as another dream level but pretty long already:

If a man lived his whole life from birth to the age of 50 in a vegan socialist commune, being a wildlife vet and left to do a talk for 1 day and had the choice of buying a bacon sandwich from a wage labour deli or vegan sandwich from a worker co-op, before returning to the commune to live out the rest of his life, then; it would be okay for their friends to ask why he chose to do the unethical act, drawing attention to his individual responsibility because there was zero to negligible alienation or social conditioning clouding his opinion.


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Video Editing Process

I’ll have to use a tonne of voice edits, copying a bunch of video automatic transcripts into a word doc, then pressing Ctrl+F for long matching sentences with script, marking the time stamp and clipping them out in order of sequence once I’ve found them all.

For video footage I’ll just use head cut outs and put them in a picture storyboard.

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I’ll put in the credits of the video that there’s a link in the description box to a google doc of the arguments in a clear format. So if you see anything you think could be explained better with an edit, let me know


Index

1. Vaush’s argument against veganism being a moral obligation under capitalism

1a. Natural Language Argument
1b. Formal Language Version Of The Same Argument

2. Natural Language Counter-Arguments

2a. Vegan Exception Counter-Argument #1
2b. Vegan Exception Counter-Argument #2
2c. Vegan General Counter-Argument

3. Formal Language Versions Of The Same Counter-Arguments

1a. Vegan Exception Counter-Argument #1
1b. Vegan Exception Counter-Argument #2
1c. Vegan General Counter-Argument


Arguments

1. Vaush’s argument against veganism being a moral obligation under capitalism.

1a. Natural language

Vaush in his own words: “I believe the morality of an action is determined by its outcomes. It is undeniable that participating in the consumption of animal products contributes harm to the world, which is why I consider the act of purchasing meat immoral.”

So the problem for Vaush comes not from whether or not some capitalist products happen to increase total utility, but whether we should condemn someone’s character when they are alienated from where the profits end up, which is what makes the ethical difference for him between shooting a cow himself and buying a product in which the profits maybe go back to the farmer to breed more.

Essentially saying we have to accept the possibility of 1 person causing infinite harm through buying meat because they were brainwashed by social conditioning in order to have the highest probability of all people arriving in the future world with greater utility. Any world where we have to condemn people for being brainwashed in order to achieve greater utility is fundamentally irrational and so (1) there’s no way to know whether that greater utility achieved in one instance could easily be cancelled out later or (2) would just be some hellscape which would not fit his definition of utility.

So ultimately we ought not spend time advocating that individuals should reduce their harmful consumption under capitalism if doing so puts an unhealthy focus on those most disadvantaged, drawing attention away from what systemic policies would uplift the most disadvantaged to be able to make healthy consumer choices. Or more broadly associates leftism with fetishised moral axioms which hampers how many people we can convert to the left.


1b. Formal Language

P1) We ought not spend time advocating that individuals ought reduce their harmful consumption under capitalism if doing so puts an unhealthy focus on those most disadvantaged, drawing attention away from what systemic policies would uplift the most disadvantaged to be able to make healthy consumer choices or more broadly associates leftism with fetishised moral axioms which hampers how many people we can convert to the left.

P2) Advocating that individuals should reduce their harmful consumption under capitalism puts an unhealthy focus on those most disadvantaged, drawing attention away from what systemic policies would uplift the most disadvantaged to be able to make healthy consumer choices or more broadly associates leftism with fetishised moral axioms which hampers how many people we can convert to the left.

C) Therefore we ought not spend time advocating individuals reduce their harmful consumption under capitalism because doing so puts an unhealthy focus on those most disadvantaged, drawing attention away from what systemic policies would uplift the most disadvantaged to be able to make healthy consumer choices or more broadly associates leftism with fetishised moral axioms which hampers how many people we can convert to the left.


2. Natural Language Counter-Arguments

2a. Vegan Exception Counter-Argument #1

If a man lived his whole life from birth to the age of 50 in a vegan socialist commune, being a wildlife vet and left to do a talk for 1 day and had the choice of buying a bacon sandwich from a wage labour deli or vegan sandwich from a worker co-op, before returning to the commune to live out the rest of his life, then; it would be okay for their friends to ask why he chose to do the unethical act, drawing attention to his individual responsibility because there was zero to negligible alienation or social conditioning clouding his opinion.


2b. Vegan Exception Counter-Argument #2

There’s a way you could take this concern for shifting the blame onto individuals too far the other way, in that I think we’d agree if someone was obscenely rich and spent all their money on luxury items, never donating to campaigns or charities that we would need to bring about a better society you would think badly of this person because they would be displaying the same indifferent behaviour you’d expect of someone who say participated in systemic racism, for example excluding your generationally low-income black friend with no car from playing on your sports team by never seeing it as your responsibility to offer to drive to pick them up so they can join in.

If we ought to spend time advocating individuals donate some amount of spare cash to campaigns & unions under capitalism because donating spare cash to campaigns & charities helps bring about a market socialist society then; we inherently are advocating individuals reduce their harmful consumption under capitalism to have the spare cash to donate to campaigns & charities.

Therefore it’s worth advocating individuals reduce their harmful consumption and it’s worth drawing people’s attention to which boycotts most effectively help bring about a world with higher total well-being in it e.g. veganism.


2c. Vegan General Counter-Argument

If we ought to spend time participating in whichever campaigns are most likely to bring about a market-socialist society fastest then; bar fringe situations like eating disorders and severe depression it’s appropriate to discuss the unethical act of buying meat with people so as to work out where they can best put their energy. Even if doing so puts a focus on their individual responsibility because doing so brings about systemic policy changes faster which would uplift the most disadvantaged to be able to make healthy consumer choices.


3. Formal Language Versions Of The Same Counter-Arguments

3a. Vegan Exception Counter-Argument #1

P1) If a man lived his whole life from birth to the age of 50 in a vegan socialist commune, being a wildlife vet and left to do a talk for 1 day and had the choice of buying a bacon sandwich from a wage labour deli or vegan sandwich from a worker co-op, before returning to the commune to live out the rest of his life, then it would be okay for their friends to ask why he chose to do the unethical act, drawing attention to his individual responsibility because there was zero to negligible alienation or social conditioning clouding his opinion.

P2) A man lived his whole life from birth to the age of 50 in a vegan socialist commune, being a wildlife vet and left to do a talk for 1 day and had the choice of buying a bacon sandwich from a wage labour deli or vegan sandwich from a worker co-op, before returning to the commune to live out the rest of his life.

C) Therefore a man lived his whole life from birth to the age of 50 in a vegan socialist commune, being a wildlife vet and left to do a talk for 1 day and had the choice of buying a bacon sandwich from a wage labour deli or vegan sandwich from a worker co-op, before returning to the commune to live out the rest of his life, AND it would be okay for their friends to ask why he chose to do the unethical act, drawing attention to his individual responsibility because there was zero to negligible alienation or social conditioning clouding his opinion.


3b. Vegan Exception Counter-Argument #2

P1) If we ought spend time advocating individuals donate some amount of spare cash to campaigns & unions under capitalism because donating spare cash to campaigns & charities helps bring about a market socialist society THEN we inherently are advocating individuals reduce their harmful consumption under capitalism to have the spare cash to donate to campaigns & charities.

P2) We ought to spend time advocating that individuals donate some amount of spare cash to campaigns & unions under capitalism because donating spare cash to campaigns & unions helps bring about a market socialist society.

C) Therefore we ought to spend time advocating that individuals donate some amount of spare cash to campaigns & unions under capitalism because donating spare cash to campaigns & charities helps bring about a market socialist society AND we inherently are advocating individuals reduce their harmful consumption under capitalism to have the spare cash to donate to campaigns & charities.


3c. Vegan General Counter-Argument

P1) If we ought to spend time participating in whichever campaigns are most likely to bring about a market-socialist society fastest THEN bar fringe situations like eating disorders and severe depression it’s appropriate to discuss the unethical act of buying meat with people so as to work out where they can best put their energy. Even if doing so puts a focus on their individual responsibility, because doing so brings about systemic policy changes faster which would uplift the most disadvantaged to be able to make healthy consumer choices.

P2) We ought to spend time participating in whichever campaigns are most likely to bring about a market-socialist society.

C) Therefore we ought spend time participating in whichever campaigns are most likely to bring about a market-socialist society fastest AND bar fringe situations like eating disorders and severe depression it’s appropriate to discuss the unethical act of buying meat with people so as to work out where they can best put their energy. Even if doing so puts a focus on their individual responsibility, because doing so brings about systemic policy changes faster which would uplift the most disadvantaged to be able to make healthy consumer choices.

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