Philosophical Vegan Forum

Am I the only non-racist in the world who doesn't think he is guilty of murder?

I could perhaps see a case for manslaughter, but murder; no freaking way.

Floyd first said "I can't breath" before they even touched him. Because of that, I don't think it is surprising that no one paid attention when he said the same with a knee on the neck.

I train BJJ and I know what it feels like being choked (it sucks), and there is no way I could utter a single word when this happens. Chauvin actually alluded to this when he said “Then stop talking, stop yelling. It takes a heck of a lot of oxygen to talk,'”

I believe Floyd's breathing was somewhat limited because of the knee, but if he hadn't been such a drama queen and instead saved his energy, he wouldn't have run out of air.

Everything I have read about George Floyd indicates that he was a complete a-hole and everything I have read about Chauvin indicates the same. I don't see anyway he will get a fair trial. He will probably spend decades in jail and I couldn't care any less.

Only first degree murder is murder proper, he's being charged (now) with second and third, and manslaughter, which is aimed to give the jury more of a choice in to how culpable he was. Basically that he acted in some degree of recklessness with disregard for the consequences.

As I understand it, Floyd was on something, so I don't think it was so much of him being a drama queen as being drugged out of his mind and freaking out.
https://www.npr.org/sections/live-updat ... oronavirus

Interestingly, he apparently also had COVID.
So it's going to be a complicated question to ask what killed him. It's in some sense a straw that broke the camel's back kind of question.
A big part of it would be if this is a fluke even if the knee killed him due to his condition, and whether it would be reasonable for the office to expect that. Since the hold was common practice and as I understand condoned by the local police institution, he could have had reason to believe it was harmless.

I expect him to be found innocent of the murder charges, he may end up with manslaughter and ten years. The courts are not easily swayed by public opinion. I would not be completely surprised if he walked free.

I think it's reasonable to have less sympathy for an asshole cop than a victim due to the authority the cop holds and the institutional power/necessity of trust in police.

brimstoneSalad wrote: ↑Fri Mar 12, 2021 2:23 am So it's going to be a complicated question to ask what killed him.

Difficult indeed. An important distinction will be if he died from asphyxiation or cardiac arrest. Any stressful event could cause cardiac arrest for a person in poor health, while asphyxiation implies that Floyd's condition had less to do with his death.

brimstoneSalad wrote: ↑Fri Mar 12, 2021 2:23 amThe courts are not easily swayed by public opinion.

I'm not sure if I agree with that. Jurors are not necessarily the smartest bunch, and I'm sure the prosecutors will frivolously throw around the race card and do everything they can to invoke memories/images of the Rodney King trial aftermath.

In some ways media opinion, public opinion (by which I mean what people say and post on social media, not what they actually think), and social media probably point to a murder change. It became fashionable to just matter of factly call it a murder at some point as if doing so supported the cause of racial equality, (or maybe even not doing so might leave someone open to the risk of being challenged?).

However common sense and law and actual analysis and thought probably point to it being manslaughter, as the jurors will probably realize. It would be quite dumb of him to have committed murder, a deliberate killing, on public and on camera. Surely Chauvin didn't intend for George Floyd to die, unless he is a total idiot. Which is always possible. But it requires significant evidence.

So the jurors will probably be leaning towards manslaughter. However if they feel significant emotional pull to use the word "murder" to satisfy certain segments of society then could go for third degree murder. According to wikipedia, In United States law, depraved-heart murder, also known as depraved-indifference murder (which I think is basically 3rd degree murder), is a type of murder where an individual acts with a "depraved indifference" to human life and where such act results in a death, despite that individual not explicitly intending to kill.

So I think manslaughter conviction or third degree murder is most likely. I'd be surprised if he gets second degree murder, or walks free, but let's see.

If he does walk free, the jurors might want to give the police (and maybe even military) some advance warning of the verdict they are planning to announce...

@Jebus Interesting point regarding King. An important consideration is also the Jurors' personal safety if they acquit. It's possible they will be targeted by activists for acquitting him if they do, and there's a good chance it would be much worse than King. A manslaughter charge with some jail time may mitigate that since they have been provided options.

brimstoneSalad wrote: ↑Fri Mar 12, 2021 2:21 pm @Jebus Interesting point regarding King. An important consideration is also the Jurors' personal safety if they acquit. It's possible they will be targeted by activists for acquitting him if they do, and there's a good chance it would be much worse than King. A manslaughter charge with some jail time may mitigate that since they have been provided options.

Unless Chauvin gets life (which he won't) we will see wide spread rioting; perhaps even worse than in 92. I think Chauvin could be held liable for his lack of urgency after Floyd went unconscious, but is that enough for manslaughter charges?

I watched some of the trial today. I find it very strange that it is televised. They already have a problem with honest testimony as witnesses know that everything they say against Chauvin will make them look like heroes whereas everything they say in favor of him will make them look like villains. Televising the trial only magnifies that fact. Doesn't seem very fair.

I would love to hear Chauvin explain the need to drag out the arrest in the way they did. Once Floyd was handcuffed why didn't they just shove him in the backseat and take him to the station? Still, any arrest is a stressful event that could lead to cardiac arrest for a person with preexisting conditions. It seems it would be difficult for the prosecution to prove that the dragged out process, and seemingly unnecessary violence is what lead to the cardiac arrest.

Jebus wrote: ↑Fri Mar 12, 2021 9:31 pm

brimstoneSalad wrote: ↑Fri Mar 12, 2021 2:21 pm @Jebus Interesting point regarding King. An important consideration is also the Jurors' personal safety if they acquit. It's possible they will be targeted by activists for acquitting him if they do, and there's a good chance it would be much worse than King. A manslaughter charge with some jail time may mitigate that since they have been provided options.

Unless Chauvin gets life (which he won't) we will see wide spread rioting; perhaps even worse than in 92. I think Chauvin could be held liable for his lack of urgency after Floyd went unconscious, but is that enough for manslaughter charges?

I agree he won't get life. So if there's going to be rioting either way, why would a judge bother to account for that in sentencing? Seems like you might as well just let him free since he's *probably* not a danger to society as long as he's not still allowed to be a cop. Seems like he'd have a hard time getting protection in prison.

I wouldn't want to be a judge on this trial.
I agree televising it has probably made it even more difficult.