Philosophical Vegan Forum

So, what do you think guys, what is going on in Chile? Why are COVID-19 cases and deaths significantly increasing, in spite of very high vaccination rates there? Is it:

a) Vaccines we have are, as WHO said when arguing against vaccine passports, not known to significantly reduce the spread of COVID-19, although they make people significantly less likely to experience symptoms if they get infected (because COVID-19 is mostly spread by people without symptoms, because, although infected people without symptoms tend to emit far fewer droplets, they tend not to be isolated from other people). As such, people have been lulled into false sense of security.

b) The seasonality of COVID-19 has more effect than vaccination, and it is now winter in Chile. I find that explanation very unlikely. While Vitamin D almost certainly helps against COVID-19, suggesting it somehow helps more than actual vaccines that target it seems ridiculous.

c) The data is inaccurate. How and why?

d) Something else...

Three (and a half) reasons:

The vaccine they use (CoronaVac) is significantly less effective than, for example, Pfizer and Moderna.

There is a new strand of Covid in Chile, against which CoronaVac is less effective.

They relaxed safety measures way too early. Social distancing and masking were removed long before they had reached any kind of herd immunity (this got even worse since the major Chilean holidays happened just before the country was about to achieve herd immunity)

Jebus wrote:The vaccine they use (CoronaVac) is significantly less effective than, for example, Pfizer and Moderna.

Isn't that kind of circular reasoning? How do we know it is significantly less effective? Because it didn't seem to work in Chile, right?
As far as I know, all the COVID-19 vaccines we have make the body produce between 8 times and 50 times more antibodies than an actual COVID-19 infection would make, and that varies much more between individual people than between the vaccines.

Jebus wrote:There is a new strand of Covid in Chile, against which CoronaVac is less effective.

As far as I know, those claims about different COVID-19 strains (that vaccines do not work against some of them...) are usually considered pseudoscientific.

Jebus wrote:Social distancing and masking were removed long before they had reached any kind of herd immunity

Then why didn't COVID-19 cases skyrocket in other places where measures were relaxed, such as Texas? Could it be because Chileans unjustifiably thought they were safe?

@Jebus, what do you think, why exactly is SinoVac less effective than other COVID-19 vaccines? Having survived COVID-19 provides little immunity because COVID-19 attacks lymph nodes and prevents the production of antibodies. But SinoVac does not attack lymph nodes, right? Besides, as far as I know, there is no evidence SinoVac produces fewer antibodies.

What do you think, @Jebus is it possible that the vast majority of the people who supposedly died from COVID-19 after getting vaccinated actually have their deaths misattributed to COVID-19? It is usually assumed that a person who died with COVID-19 died from it. That has never been true, and is much less true for vaccinated people. Furthermore, the Chilean (the country which is supposed to both have a high vaccination rate and high COVID-19 mortality rate) overall mortality rate is actually record low for this time of the year.

teo123 wrote: ↑Fri Jun 25, 2021 10:02 am What do you think, @Jebus is it possible that the vast majority of the people who supposedly died from COVID-19 after getting vaccinated actually have their deaths misattributed to COVID-19? It is usually assumed that a person who died with COVID-19 died from it. That has never been true, and is much less true for vaccinated people. Furthermore, the Chilean (the country which is supposed to both have a high vaccination rate and high COVID-19 mortality rate) overall mortality rate is actually record low for this time of the year.

Why do you constantly ping people? It isn't going to make anyone respond faster.

Red wrote: ↑Fri Jun 25, 2021 11:56 am

teo123 wrote: ↑Fri Jun 25, 2021 10:02 am What do you think, @Jebus is it possible that the vast majority of the people who supposedly died from COVID-19 after getting vaccinated actually have their deaths misattributed to COVID-19? It is usually assumed that a person who died with COVID-19 died from it. That has never been true, and is much less true for vaccinated people. Furthermore, the Chilean (the country which is supposed to both have a high vaccination rate and high COVID-19 mortality rate) overall mortality rate is actually record low for this time of the year.

Why do you constantly ping people? It isn't going to make anyone respond faster.

Well, I thought they might miss my message if I do not PING them. Though, this forum is very inactive now, so that may not be the case.

Anyway, what do you think about vaccination against COVID-19? Will you get vaccinated or have you already?

If I were a 80-year-old, the choice would be clear. I would have 5% chance of dying from COVID-19 if I catch it, and vaccination would replace that 5% chance of dying from COVID-19 which so-small-to-be-hard-to-estimate danger of dying from a vaccine. But I am a 21-year-old, and my chance of dying if I get COVID-19 is also so small as to be hard to estimate (presumably somewhere between 1/10'000 and 1/1'000). And, from what I've read, it seems that, somehow magically, adverse reactions to the vaccine are more common in young people than in old people. Perhaps it is some form of a statistical illusion, but I cannot figure out what causes it.

The situation with side-effectas from COVID-19 vaccines seems to be similar with the situation with side-effects of statins. For statins, for example, it is common knowledge they cause muscle pain. If you read the experiences people had with statins on the Internet, they will almost always mention the muscle pain. Yet, rigorous studies, that control for the placebo effect, fail to confirm that. Muscle pain, according to those studies, occurs equally frequently in people who received the placebo and the people who received actual statin. Similarly with young people who received COVID-19 vaccinations and post their experience on the Internet, they mostly claim the side effects of COVID-19 vaccination are not much better than COVID-19 itself in young people (high fever for days, horrible headache, muscle pain...). On the other hand, rigorous studies that control for placebo claim headache and fever are about as common in the control group as in the people who received actual vaccine. What is going on here? Have young people got psychosomatic illnesses during this pandemic? Or is there something more to it?

Getting vaccinated as a young person kind of sends a political message that I support Plenković'es administration, which I do not. Plenković'es administration will not allow people who are not vaccinated to go to cinemas or theatres or music concerts. Well, so be it. I started to hate the Croatian culture and I do not think I will ever want to go cinemas or theatres or music concerts again.

And what do you think about Polio vaccination? Is Polio vaccination the main reason we have much less Polio these days? Or is the primary reason the hygiene, for example, that children play less in the sand these days (which used to be the primary way to catch Polio)? I have seen some compelling arguments to think it is primarily the hygiene. If it were for the vaccination, we would expect that most people who get polio today are elderly people with weak immune system. But that is not the case, most people who get polio these days are vaccinated children, who have much stronger immune systems.

teo123 wrote: ↑Sat Jun 26, 2021 6:34 am If I were a 80-year-old, the choice would be clear. I would have 5% chance of dying from COVID-19 if I catch it, and vaccination would replace that 5% chance of dying from COVID-19 which so-small-to-be-hard-to-estimate danger of dying from a vaccine. But I am a 21-year-old, and my chance of dying if I get COVID-19 is also so small as to be hard to estimate (presumably somewhere between 1/10'000 and 1/1'000).

Don't you understand how incredibly selfish this viewpoint is?

Jebus wrote: ↑Sat Jun 26, 2021 12:29 pm

teo123 wrote: ↑Sat Jun 26, 2021 6:34 am If I were a 80-year-old, the choice would be clear. I would have 5% chance of dying from COVID-19 if I catch it, and vaccination would replace that 5% chance of dying from COVID-19 which so-small-to-be-hard-to-estimate danger of dying from a vaccine. But I am a 21-year-old, and my chance of dying if I get COVID-19 is also so small as to be hard to estimate (presumably somewhere between 1/10'000 and 1/1'000).

Don't you understand how incredibly selfish this viewpoint is?

It would perhaps be selfish if there were evidence vaccines significantly protected against spreading of COVID-19 (as opposed to developing symptoms and dying from COVID-19). But there is not, which is why government agencies still recommend that vaccinated people continue wearing masks. If vaccines do not significantly help lower the transmission of COVID-19, then young people getting vaccinated, if anything, puts other people at greater risk, rather than lower risk. If vaccinated, young people who carry COVID-19 are very unlikely to know they are carrying COVID-19 (because they will not have symptoms), and will thus not isolate themselves from the society.

teo123 wrote: ↑Sat Jun 26, 2021 1:44 pmIt would perhaps be selfish if there were evidence vaccines significantly protected against spreading of COVID-19 (as opposed to developing symptoms and dying from COVID-19). But there is not

Yes there is, and if you took 10 seconds to research this you would know that.

teo123 wrote: ↑Sat Jun 26, 2021 1:44 pmwhich is why government agencies still recommend that vaccinated people continue wearing masks.

No expert ever said that vaccines offer 100% protection from transmission. Since they don't it is important to wear a mask whenever social distancing is not possible.

Teo, you are still not progressing intellectually. What is holding you back?