Philosophical Vegan Forum

Hi, My name is Tanner R. and this is my first post on this forum.

I just want to understand how the thought process of a Vegan works by asking some "why" questions; apologies in advance if any of these questions are repetitive. I'd be grateful for any insight you can give.

1. Do Vegans believe their diet is healthier? If so, Why? Aren't you being deprived of important nutrients like B12, Docosahexaenoic Acid, carnosine, creatine and other amino based proteins? As for things like fat and cholesterol I know these two are bad but they are integral to optimal bodily function in controlled amounts. I've read in multiple articles that show Vegans are actually deficient in many nutrients! Also do you have evidence that a Vegan diet is healthier?

2. Do Vegans believe they are being more moral by not eating other creatures or that we are turning animals into egg pumping, walking meat buffets? Can't the same be said about the way we cultivate plants? they have no say in what we do to them. Same goes for fungi and microbes; we mass produce penicillium, put it in an optimal situation to reproduce and reap the benefits. That is what we do will animals isn't it? By your logic would it make sense to not to eat anything except other things that consent to being eaten? Like humans if they were to so choose?

3. (This is more of a statement than a question.) Humans evolved this way, now I'm no proponent for a 'Darwinian Society' but the fact that humans evolved as omnivores must be blindingly good evidence that omnivorism is the way to go. I do acknowledge that evolution for humanity has reached a point where luxuries such as Veganism are allowed, but, if anything our evolution is a sign that it is more beneficial to eat meat. Humans are still part of the Animal Kingdom we are just at the top. Like any other animal we have found the most efficient ways to get food.

4. If Vegans do believe that there diet is taking some moral high ground shouldn't it be implemented elsewhere in the animal kingdom? It is our duty is to uphold morality and detach from caveman barbaric ways right? For example, if a lion kills an antelope who clearly wishes not to be killed, should we stop this lion from eating anymore antelope? The antelope had no choice in the matter so why should the lion say whether it lives or dies? The same could be said for omnivorous animals like bears, are bears, or humans going to decide that bears should stop eating fish because fish had no say in the matter? Shouldn't bears make that decision themselves? No, because they can't since they have no grasp of morality.(more on this in the next para)

5. Is it even a question of morality when animals cannot grasp the concept of morality or have any higher levels of thinking? Should it even matter when most/all animals have such a black and white view of the world? Meaning "try to live and don't die" "get fat and reproduce" in this sense of 'animal thought process/morality' aren't meat eaters doing the right thing by for the most part satisfying those goals for the animal while advancing our own agenda? We are giving them amazing lives by this logic! Aren't animal lives inconsequential in the grand scheme of things? Isn't dying to feed humans who discover how the universe works, explore space, end suffering, a greater cause for their existence than moseying around there whole life eating grass and running from predators? The lives that are of importance are those of humans, isn't the greater good of humans what we should be concerned about instead of p-brained animals that will amount to nothing in there life? At least in dying to feed humans they are doing something worthwhile!

I could probably go on and on but this suffice for now. If you have the time please answer my question(s)! any insight is much appreciated!

Sorry about the disjunction of some of my paragraphs, English/Writing was never my subject.

Thanks so much for your time,
Tanner R.

Welcome to the forums!

TRodGene wrote:1. Do Vegans believe their diet is healthier? If so, Why?

Healthier than what? The SAD (Standard American Diet)? Probably, but a vegan diet can be very unhealthy or healthy; it compares on what the vegan eats and what you compare it to. I could eat nothing but fries all day and call it a vegan diet, I could also eat a variety of legumes, vegetables, fruits and whole grains and call it a vegan diet. One is very unhealthy, the other is possibly one of the most healthy diet. I and most other vegans do not think that consuming animal products would make a vegan diet more healthy.

Aren't you being deprived of important nutrients like B12, Docosahexaenoic Acid, carnosine, creatine and other amino based proteins?

B12: I take a supplement, it's the best way to make sure you're getting enough of it even if you eat meat.
DHA Can be synthesized from ALA, which can be obtained in abundance from stuff like flax seeds. Also, there's algae oils. Fish is only rich in DHA because fish eat algae, I'd rather get the omega 3 from the original source without the pollutants that come from fish (oil).

As for animal protein: it's really bad for your heart and also inflammatory. It's much better to get protein from plant sources. All the amino acids you need can be obtained from plants. Soybeans contain all necessary amino acids, but you can also get them by eating different kinds of foods with different kinds of amino acids. (just like you don't need one food that gives you all vitamins) http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/nutritionso ... t/protein/

As for things like fat and cholesterol I know these two are bad but they are integral to optimal bodily function in controlled amounts.

Fat is necessary; unsaturated fat. However, trans-fat and saturated fat are only harmful to our body. All the cholesterol you need is produced by the body, getting much more drastically increases your chances of getting a CVDs.

I've read in multiple articles that show Vegans are actually deficient in many nutrients! Also do you have evidence that a Vegan diet is healthier?

Yea, I've seen many studies that indicate people that eat the SAD diet are deficient in many nutrients too. It means very little as a vegan diet can be anything.

There is a lot of evidence that some vegan diets (like a high fiber or plant-based diet) can be very healthy compared to diets that contain animal products. A high fiber diet can reduce risk of diabetes, alzheimer's, cvd, cancer, and help with losing weight. A good starting point is Michael Greger's "uprooting the leading causes of death" talk:
http://nutritionfacts.org/video/uprooti ... -of-death/

TRodGene wrote: 2. Do Vegans believe they are being more moral by not eating other creatures or that we are turning animals into egg pumping, walking meat buffets?

Most do, yes.

Can't the same be said about the way we cultivate plants? they have no say in what we do to them. Same goes for fungi and microbes; we mass produce penicillium, put it in an optimal situation to reproduce and reap the benefits. That is what we do will animals isn't it? By your logic would it make sense to not to eat anything except other things that consent to being eaten? Like humans if they were to so choose?

Plants, fungi and bacteria are not sentient, thus they can not suffer. Therefore, all the objections to the meat- and dairy industry that a vegan might have in a moral sense to do not apply to non-animal agriculture.

3. (This is more of a statement than a question.) Humans evolved this way, now I'm no proponent for a 'Darwinian Society' but the fact that humans evolved as omnivores must be blindingly good evidence that omnivorism is the way to go.

That's an appeal to nature fallacy. Nature is full of terrible things; rape, cannibalism, etc. Not all that is natural is good.
Regarding health; meat is useful in evolution when there are no plants to eat. However, evolution does not apply to anything after reproduction age. If meat causes cancer after you get a baby, evolution won't filter meat out of the diet or adapt to it further; it doesn't matter by then. Therefore, evolution is hardly something to study when trying to determine the healthiest diet.

4. If Vegans do believe that there diet is taking some moral high ground shouldn't it be implemented elsewhere in the animal kingdom? It is our duty is to uphold morality and detach from caveman barbaric ways right? For example, if a lion kills an antelope who clearly wishes not to be killed, should we stop this lion from eating anymore antelope?

A lion has to eat meat in order to survive, we don't. Also, Lions are killing way less antelopes than humans are killing livestock. too. Humans are by far the largest offender, killing billions of animals each year. Therefore, our focus should be on humans.

5. Is it even a question of morality when animals cannot grasp the concept of morality or have any higher levels of thinking?

Can animals suffer? Yes. Therefore, it is a question of morality. Intelligence is not relevant at all.
Think of the implications of basing our morality on whether or not a being is intelligent: should we then not be allowed to kill mentally handicapped people? Computers are or will be far more intelligent than humans, do we not matter then? If a genius is in danger, should his life be saved rather than three lowly educated persons? If intelligence is your moral compass, your answer to these questions should be yes.

miniboes wrote: Plants, fungi and bacteria are not sentient, thus they can not suffer. Therefore, all the objections to the meat- and dairy industry that a vegan might have in a moral sense to do not apply to non-animal agriculture.

It's worth it to add that there are also non-sentient animals, like sponges (that are just barely organized collections of cells), probably jellyfish, and possibly (even likely) oysters.

Educated vegans also usually don't make a fuss about these animals (provided they are harvested in an environmentally conscious way).
It's not about blindly choosing plants over animals, it's choosing to reduce the suffering that we cause, and not harming beings that suffer is a big part of that.

Also:

4. If Non-Rapists do believe that there sexual practices is taking some moral high ground compared to rapists, shouldn't it be implemented elsewhere in the animal kingdom? It is our duty is to uphold morality and detach from caveman barbaric ways right? For example, if a lion rapes an antelope who clearly wishes not to be raped, should we stop this lion from raping anymore antelope?

The answer to this question sometimes becomes more apparent when rephrased.

Whether or not he wants to affect change in the world around him by changing other's behavior, it's not an argument for him to disregard his own behavior.

He doesn't want to stop lions from raping? Fine. That's not an excuse for him to go on raping others himself.
Same thing with eating meat.

5. Is it even a question of morality when animals cannot grasp the concept of morality or have any higher levels of thinking?

This "question" is ambiguous.

If he means "are non-human animals excused from behaving savagely because they don't know the difference?", to a degree, yes.
But we humans (most of us, if we aren't mentally handicapped) do know the difference, so that can't be used as an excuse for human bad behavior (like harming other animals).

TRodGene wrote:4. If Vegans do believe that there diet is taking some moral high ground shouldn't it be implemented elsewhere in the animal kingdom? It is our duty is to uphold morality and detach from caveman barbaric ways right? For example, if a lion kills an antelope who clearly wishes not to be killed, should we stop this lion from eating anymore antelope? The antelope had no choice in the matter so why should the lion say whether it lives or dies? The same could be said for omnivorous animals like bears, are bears, or humans going to decide that bears should stop eating fish because fish had no say in the matter? Shouldn't bears make that decision themselves? No, because they can't since they have no grasp of morality.(more on this in the next para)

Lions aren't omnivorous they are carnivorous. Even if they could understand the concept of murder/right/wrong. They did not evolve to be able
to sustain their life on a plant based diet.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carnivore