Veganism vs Vegetarianism

[pizza]

I think the title is clear enough, Why Vegan and not Vegetarian?

[brimstoneSalad]

The cruelty of modern milk, egg, etc. production.

This applies in the Western world, but elsewhere too.

There are rare exceptions. But do those exceptions excuse the practice?

E.g. In some parts of India, cows are considered sacred, for example, and there is little doubt that there are *some* cows who are treated as members of the family, and live good lives.
But still, more often than not, because they are overwhelmingly used for milk and labor in an economic dynamic (they're not pets), when they become a burden and no longer produce, they are abandoned or sold (whether reluctantly by owners who can not afford to keep them, or callously, it doesn't make a difference to the cows), and end of on a death march across the border where they may be legally slaughtered for leather (if they don't die along the way).

Even in the best of cases, culturally, legally, there are examples of profound cruelty that make the entire system suspect.


When slavery was still prevalent in North America, the same argument- that some slaves are happy- was made. That's debatable in itself, but let's assume that perhaps that was the case; as a system it is still inherently prone to abuse, and there's no practical way to avoid it. And as a system, it was entirely unnecessary (and in fact economically counter-productive); there was no reason to maintain slavery.

The same is the case with animal agriculture today.

If even one animal suffers as horribly as currently the vast majority do, how does the unnecessary consumption of milk (which is not healthy) or eggs justify that continued suffering?

You might try to say the same thing about car crashes and transportation, but transportation really does provide an essential need in society which can not currently be fully fulfilled by other, safer, means. Milk and eggs used for food do not. They are not efficient (they waste food), they are not healthy (eggs perhaps not as bad as milk, but neither actually necessary), and they are all easily replaced in almost every culinary preparation.

There's no reason to keep the system going, and if there's even one moral reason to stop it, that should be enough.

[thebestofenergy]

First of all, cows (and any other mammal, like dogs and cats) can make milk only when they have a baby to feed. Cows are artificially raped to be made pregnant; we then take their calves away from them, so we can take the milk that was intended to go to the calves. This procedure is reapeted multiple times. When the cow is too old, she's taken to the slaughterhouse. This is the most common method.
There's no nutritional need for humans to drink milk/eat cheese, after breastfeeding. Drinking cows' milk is just like drinking dogs' milk or cats' milk. Why would you do it? There's no need for it, and you would have to steal the milk that their babies need.
To satisfy a big demand of supply of milk, you have to mass produce it. In order to do that, you require a great number of cows. But what to do when the cows can't make milk anymore/are too old? After stealing their babies away from them for their whole lives, they are sent to the slaughterhouse.
The same thing happens with chickens: if the demand is high, you must have a big number of chickens, and when they are useless you can't just maintain them all, having no profit.
About the honey, I suggest reading this article: http://www.vegetus.org/honey/honey.htm
There cannot be a vegetarian world, since demanding milk/eggs/honey for billions of people would be impossible without having a mass productions of animals. It's either fully vegan or not.

[brimstoneSalad]

There cannot be a vegetarian world, since demanding milk/eggs/honey for billions of people would be impossible without having a mass productions of animals. It's either fully vegan or not.

Great post energy,

One interesting thing is sometimes demand for milk and eggs even increases for vegetarians- meaning animal agriculture might not reduce much at all if the world went vegetarian.

Of course, I'd say the world would be better as many vegans as there are- even if not everybody goes vegan, every little bit helps.

[Neptual]

Being a vegetarian if usually the first step in the process of becoming a vegan. It's usually for those who have a hard time giving up dairy products. I've never had that problem as I am lactose intolerant so I never ate milk, cheese to begin with

[Volenta]

There cannot be a vegetarian world, since demanding milk/eggs/honey for billions of people would be impossible without having a mass productions of animals. It's either fully vegan or not.

Although it's probably true, like brimstoneSalad noticed, that some vegetarians consume more dairy/eggs because they think they need to (?). I do think that every step people take in the direction of consuming less animal products is a good one. Stopping with eating meat does get you thinking more about animal issues, making the leap towards veganism easier. I think vegetarians are more likely to drink soy milk than meat eaters, without going full vegan. So I do not agree with you that people should either be vegan or not, since every step counts.

[thebestofenergy]

Although it's probably true, like brimstoneSalad noticed, that some vegetarians consume more dairy/eggs because they think they need to (?). I do think that every step people take in the direction of consuming less animal products is a good one. Stopping with eating meat does get you thinking more about animal issues, making the leap towards veganism easier. I think vegetarians are more likely to drink soy milk than meat eaters, without going full vegan. So I do not agree with you that people should either be vegan or not, since every step counts.

I did not mean that people should either be vegan or not, I went through the phase of being vegetarian before becoming vegan myself. I meant that a hypothetical world, where everyone is vegetarian and still eating dairies and eggs, is impossible to happen without the mass production (and therefore exploit/harm/killing) of animals.

[Volenta]

I did not mean that people should either be vegan or not, I went through the phase of being vegetarian before becoming vegan myself. I meant that a hypothetical world, where everyone is vegetarian and still eating dairies and eggs, is impossible to happen without the mass production (and therefore exploit/harm/killing) of animals.

In that case you're right. Not every vegetarian (and even some vegans) has a problem with mass production of animals though, as long as it's done 'humanely'. But I think it's kind of weird to go vegetarian (not vegan) if it's for environmental reasons.

[thebestofenergy]

In that case you're right. Not every vegetarian (and even some vegans) has a problem with mass production of animals though, as long as it's done 'humanely'. But I think it's kind of weird to go vegetarian (not vegan) if it's for environmental reasons.

About that 'humanely' thing, I've yet to meet an ethical vegan that thinks humanely killing someone that doesn't want to die can be done.

[brimstoneSalad]

About that 'humanely' thing, I've yet to meet an ethical vegan that thinks humanely killing someone that doesn't want to die can be done.

Speciesists come in all types.

I've known many vegans who didn't disagree with killing animals for food as long as done 'humanely'. They didn't stay vegans very long- they also seemed to lose their concern for it even being done 'humanely' by their original standards.

Inconsistent ethics are never stable, and will tend to decay back into complete amorality at the slightest jostling.