Philosophical Vegan Forum

Yesterday I got accoused of not being a vegetarian. No let me say I dont eat any products which require animals to die. I wear leathershoes, but only because i bougth them before becoming a vegetarian and I don't think its reasonable to throw away shoes worth several hundret of euros. And the person who accoused me agrees with me on this point. The point she made was a different. Vegetarianism isn't a central thing in my life. I don't spend several hours a week reading or informing myself about it. I just chose to not buy products which include parts of dead animals. She said this is like somebody who does this because its hip and not like somebody who does it because of moral reasons. Then she adds, that she know im not such a "hip" person and I do it because of moral reasons, still i'm not a vegetarian.

I dunno, it smells like a no true scottsman fallacy and adding to that, in my eyes I have spent quite some time with this topic. I bought several vegan products, testing what I like and how i will cook my meals. I learned to eat zuccini, broccoli and spinacci (i did hate those) just so my range of food doesn't get to narrow after I became vegetarian. I feel like I have accomplished much in just 2 1/2 month. But fuck you can't do anything right no matter how you do it. My meat eating friends and coworkers laugh at vegetarians and vegans and my vegetarian and vegan friends think i'm not a real vegetarian, because I don't "live it", just take part in it.

I kinda feel ostracised from both groups right now. Maybe it just takes time. But damn this is a shitty phase and I can completely understand why so many people give up after a short amount of time.

There are people who aren't vegetarian, but just don't eat meat -- because they don't have access to meat.

Anybody who makes the choice not to eat meat when they have access to it is a vegetarian.
There are vegetarians for health reasons, moral reasons, religious reasons, or even just to win a bet. There are vegetarians who hunt, even.
Reason is irrelevant to the fact of somebody being a vegetarian.

You're certainly a vegetarian. These people aren't making any sense.

I know it's hard, but try not to take it too personally; people have a hard time adjusting to things, and may be skeptical initially.
Have you shared with them how this makes you feel? The meat eaters probably won't care, and will just tell you to give in to peer pressure, but the vegans should care.

Corelich. Why did you become a vegetarian? Was it to impress others or because you felt it was the right thing to do? If it was because of moral reasons, you shouldn't care what immoral or amoral people think of you. If you ever do decide to become vegan, the social ostracization may become even worse. My social life has gone to shit since I became vegan. Even though I still get together occasionally with old friends, my prerequisites for new friendships are vegan and atheist.

Jebus wrote:My social life has gone to shit since I became vegan. Even though I still get together occasionally with old friends, my prerequisites for new friendships are vegan and atheist.

Is it really that tough being vegan (as a social matter) where you live? I certainly become exasperated with ignorant people once in a while, but for the most part my friends and family are accepting of my veganism. I guess Santa Cruz (where I live now) and the Bay Area (where I grew up) might just be relatively open-minded regions of the world.

I'm concerned that what you said might discourage Corelich from finishing his/her transition to being vegan.

As for your "pre-requisites" for friendships, would you really avoid befriending a theist or a nonvegan? What if they seem rational, open-minded, and have some likelihood to change? I don't mean this as negative criticism; I'd simply like to know how strict you are in your views regarding atheism and veganism.

ArmouredAbolitionist wrote:for the most part my friends and family are accepting of my veganism.

Yes many of my friends and family say they are too, but I am less accepting of their non-veganism? Fortunately, I live in a different hemisphere than my friends and old family so I don't really have to tackle the issue straight on. I'm not sure our friendship/ family bond would last if I had to spend time with them regularly.

ArmouredAbolitionist wrote:I'm concerned that what you said might discourage Corelich from finishing his/her transition to being vegan.

It may or may not, as I don't know much about Corelich and his character. However, I know that anyone who dives into veganism without first having realized the potential negative consequences may not last long as a vegan anyway.

ArmouredAbolitionist wrote:As for your "pre-requisites" for friendships, would you really avoid befriending a theist or a nonvegan?

Yes

ArmouredAbolitionist wrote:What if they seem rational, open-minded

I don't believe there are any rational open-minded theists.

ArmouredAbolitionist wrote:and have some likelihood to change?

I would love to engage in conversation with any carnist who I believe has a likelihood to change. However, this is far different from befriending someone. My spare time is so precious and I simply wouldn't enjoy spending that precious time with someone who contributes to the suffering of animals.

Jebus wrote: I don't believe there are any rational open-minded theists.

Many atheists were theists. They had to be open-minded to change.

ArmouredAbolitionist wrote: Is it really that tough being vegan (as a social matter) where you live?

From what I've heard, it's kind of a crappy place to live. Jebus, why don't you move?

West coast is pretty decent. I've never had that much trouble meeting vegetarians and vegans anywhere in the world.

ArmouredAbolitionist wrote: As for your "pre-requisites" for friendships, would you really avoid befriending a theist or a nonvegan? What if they seem rational, open-minded, and have some likelihood to change? I don't mean this as negative criticism; I'd simply like to know how strict you are in your views regarding atheism and veganism.

I get what he's saying, and I think you're looking at friendship a bit differently. I would encourage you to be more discerning, really -- but not necessarily in the way Jebus is (I think he's going about it a little strictly).

For busy people, making friends is a matter of spending less time with other friends, or sacrificing time that would be spent doing something else more productive. It's an investment, a commitment, an obligation, and there's an opportunity cost. If you are not discerning about those you make friends with, you'll end up with a lot of flaky non-friends, and no real friendships.
I will definitely do anything I can to help out a fellow vegan, so they're kind of automatic friends (although I may not socialize with them beyond helping them when I can).

If you're still a kid with lots of free time and not enough people to have fun with and making new friends for you has no opportunity cost, then sure, why not? But if you have limited time, and limited patience for social interactions like most, in order to become friends with somebody, you have to have a compelling reason.

For me, beyond people I innately want to help and provide a social support system for, I will become friends with people I can learn something from.
So, I don't agree with Jebus on that point; I'll be friends with an apologist, for example, precisely because I will argue with them and gain something extra from the relationship (beyond playing billiards, or whatever). However, I wouldn't be friends with your run-of-the-mill ignorant (doesn't even know their own religion) kind of Christian. There's too much annoyance, and not enough stimulation to make up for it. If they aren't interested in discussing it, it's just not going to happen (a friendship).

If you meet a fellow vegan, go out of your way to help and provide a social support system for them.
Otherwise, if somebody isn't a vegan and will be taking precious time to socialize with (beyond a work colleague you are friendly with -- that's not being friends) ask yourself how being friends with this person will improve you as a human being. Will you learn something meaningful? Will they challenge you in a way that you can grow?
If not, just be friendly, but take a pass on making a new friend, which is something much more (and less trivial than acquaintances with whom you are friendly when you see them incidentally).

Does that make sense?

EquALLity wrote:

Jebus wrote: I don't believe there are any rational open-minded theists.

Many atheists were theists. They had to be open-minded to change.

Yes, but if they really are, it takes about five minutes to convince them that their deity doesn't exist and their religion is false.

That said, I don't think they have to be fully open minded or rational to provide discussion, and help one sharpen one's debate skills.
That's how you get to the point of being able to talk the rational theists out of their beliefs in five minutes.

Unfortunately, I find apologists less and less challenging as the years wear on. Although maybe that's a good thing.

EquALLity wrote:

Jebus wrote: I don't believe there are any rational open-minded theists.

Many atheists were theists. They had to be open-minded to change.

Good point and I should have phrased that differently as there are indeed a few percent open-minded theists.

[quote="brimstoneSalad"]From what I've heard, it's kind of a crappy place to live. Jebus, why don't you move?/quote]

There are a few reasons for this.

1. I take care of six dogs who depend on me. I don't want to put them through quarantine/relocation hell.
2. I have become accustomed to certain luxuries, like domestic help, that I could never afford elsewhere.
3. I am able to make a full time living off a part time job
4. Great weather
5. Low taxes

Also, I have a feeling social contact is less important to me than it is to others. I am perfectly happy seeking out intellectually stimulating discussions on the Internet instead of in person.