Philosophical Vegan Forum

We tend to think of veganism as something that follows purely from logic and human empathy/compassion for fellow sentient beings -- at least, the arguments that activists usually make seem to assume this. But we all know how common it is for perfectly reasonable, well-meaning people to continue eating animal products despite being made fully aware of the implications, so that certainly can't be all that there is to it. I think, at the end of the day, it is human nature to behave in a way that maximizes one's "comfort" -- in themselves as a person, their position in society, their future well-being. And it is in finding this point of comfort that we may or may not choose to become vegan.

One obvious component here is the "disconnect" in which the consequences of your actions take on a more fuzzy nature in your mind and may no longer even seem real. Obviously we all vary in the degree to which we can feel indirectly culpable about certain things, but I think that even those who are very much aware of their contribution to violence will often not alter course. So there may be a lot more at play here than just that. So, I wanted to make a thread to talk more about what these "hidden" psychological/social factors might be (unfortuately I don't have the gumption to ask an IRL non-vegan to see if any of my assumptions are correct, but perhaps one of you does). Of course this is an extremely complex topic, but I just wanted to try to identify what might be the most significant ones.

The primary reason why people don't go vegan, at the end of the day, is probably the social consequences of doing so (stemming from the fact that we live in a predominantly non-vegan world). You sometimes hear this come up in debates, though not very often -- something like "I just can't go vegan because it would make things complicated when my friends want to grab something to eat". While a very small percentage of people may be doing some complex utilitarian calculus along the lines of "the social cost of me being vegan outweighs the cost to animal well-being of me eating meat", the vast majority of people probably just don't want to put themselves through that kind of social pain on a regular basis. I think, despite this being such a common reason for not going vegan, it is not often mentioned in debates because 1) it's not based on logic and 2) it negatively reflects on the vegan they're debating with (and they don't want to be rude).

If the social consequences of being vegan didn't exist, I suspect that perhaps even 20%-40% of the population of the developed world would be vegan. This social impetus is very strong -- among this population of otherwise vegan-inclined individuals, even in situations when vegan options are readily available and they can obtain them without extra cost to themselves or others, they would often choose the non-vegan one anyways so as to signal to their friends that "it's okay, I'm not judging you".

I believe that being a vegan in the modern day requires a particular "social orientation" -- by this I don't mean some kind of Myers-Briggs personality type, but rather a certain kind of self-perception with respect to the society you live in. You have to be okay with going against social norms on occasion and making things a bit unpleasant for others, if it means doing something more ethical overall. Personally (and perhaps many vegans can relate to this) I generally try to act how someone transported to the modern day from a more ethical future might act, doing my best to help others and minimize my impact while I'm here, and see myself as a kind of "visitor" in that regard. This reflects itself beyond me being vegan, for example I take almost no interest in politics, I'm WFPB/straight edge, I'm asexual and orchidromantic (which is kind of the veganism of romantic orientations, but perhaps that's a topic for another thread).

So anyways, while the social factors mentioned above are probably paramount, I think there are many, many other reasons that people ultimately don't end up going vegan for reasons they don't really tend to say. Can you think of any other ones?

While social consequences probably do play a pretty significant part, I think the main reason why a person who is otherwise persuaded that Veganism is the ethical thing to do for the animals and the environment won't make much if any effort to make that full transition is pretty much just laziness and habit. Examples of otherwise intelligent and philosophically literate people like Hank Green and Richard Dawkins have discussed how Vegetarianism is the ethical thing to do, but have acknowledged they don't practice it themselves.

It might not seem like it to us since we've been Vegan for years, but the very notion of doing away with the foods you routinely eat everyday and replacing it with foods you rarely eat (or perhaps not view as a main course) is incredibly daunting and seems like such a major ask for a good majority of people in wealthier countries. It's almost like giving up a part of their lives; Of course, these days the transition isn't anywhere near as bad since there are so many delicious Vegan alternatives that are available, but people still feel as though it might be a downgrade, plus let's not act like a lot of mock meats aren't a little pricey.

But someone who is sympathetic to Veganism but not Vegan his or herself is likely to be a person who makes efforts to reduce their consumption where easy possible: This tends to come in the form of switching out dairy milk for non-dairy milk, doing a meatless Monday, getting the Vegan option when going out to eat, and substituting some foods with Vegan alternatives (like Vegan cheeses or deli slices, or vegan butter). In fact the main reason why mock meats are growing in popularity is because of the reducitarian crowd. Only about 1% of the population is Vegan, and markets aren't going to dedicate resources and shelf space to cater to such a small market, after all. It's a very good sign that most grocery stores and restaurants have at least a few Vegan options available to people (unless you're in an undeveloped area), even if it's done for the non-altruistic reason of not wanting to lose the patronage of friend groups who have a vegan with them.

I don't quite agree that the social consequences are as harsh these days though, since people, while they might not be vegan, can acknowledge a person who is as morally virtuous (provided they aren't being abrasive about it which can reinforce the negative stereotypes) and ultimately see it as a good thing to do, especially with the environment being such a massive concern. We have to be good representatives of veganism and try not to associate it with terrible things like misanthropy or fringe ideas like communism or whatever.

I do not however believe that the social consequences or the general dauntingness of transitioning to Veganism are the main reasons why we don't see our numbers growing. People go Vegan and Vegetarian all the time. It isn't like it's something that only appeals to a small percentage of the population, since most people care about animals, the environment, and their health and do want to be consistent with their values. The reason why we don't see more Vegans and Vegetarians is because the overwhelming majority of people who do make that transition will sooner or later switch back to eating meat. If I were to hazard a guess, if every person who went vegan/vegetarian STAYED vegan/vegertarian, we probably would see that 20-40% you mentioned in your post, which would be more than enough to reach critical mass, and be a breaking point of sorts for the movement, as you mentioned. I think there's something of a general expectation amongst the general public that most people don't stay for Vegetarian/Vegan for very long anyways, viewing it as a phase, temporary reaction, or just an experiment. I still have people that I don't see much ask me (when they do see me) if I'm still Vegan, which to me is fairly telling.

This is kind of why I've moved towards advocating for reducitatrianism over Veganism; Because the latter simply does not work. Getting people to cut down is much easier and more effective.

aroneous wrote:I generally try to act how someone transported to the modern day from a more ethical future might act, doing my best to help others and minimize my impact while I'm here, and see myself as a kind of "visitor" in that regard.

I'm not sure if this mindset is useful. Even though I go against the norm by being vegan, most people understand that animals have SOME moral value, meaning in terms of mentality we're mostly on the same page. You need to do everything you can to minimize the barrier between you and others if you want to get more people to reduce their consumption of animal products. We are all citizens of this world trying our best in the here and now.

aroneous wrote:This reflects itself beyond me being vegan, for example I take almost no interest in politics,

I hate partisan political bullshit as the next guy, but you should care a little about politics, even if it's just going out to vote whenever an election comes around.

aroneous wrote:I'm WFPB/straight edge,

Straight edge is certainly something more people should do, but that's ultimately a personal choice (an ACTUAL personal choice, unlike deciding to eat other animals) and you can't really restrict things like alcohol much.

aroneous wrote: I'm asexual and orchidromantic (which is kind of the veganism of romantic orientations, but perhaps that's a topic for another thread).

I would be interested in discussing that with you.

Red wrote: ↑Sat Sep 07, 2024 1:03 pm While social consequences probably do play a pretty significant part, I think the main reason why a person who is otherwise persuaded that Veganism is the ethical thing to do for the animals and the environment won't make much if any effort to make that full transition is pretty much just laziness and habit. Examples of otherwise intelligent and philosophically literate people like Hank Green and Richard Dawkins have discussed how Vegetarianism is the ethical thing to do, but have acknowledged they don't practice it themselves.

Oh right, yep indeed this aspect did slip my mind when writing this post. Though it does make me wonder why exactly vegans would have a much greater drive to overcome laziness/forces of habit. Do we just have more empathy than them? Probably, it's quite a bit more complex than that.

Red wrote: ↑Sat Sep 07, 2024 1:03 pm I don't quite agree that the social consequences are as harsh these days though, since people, while they might not be vegan, can acknowledge a person who is as morally virtuous (provided they aren't being abrasive about it which can reinforce the negative stereotypes) and ultimately see it as a good thing to do, especially with the environment being such a massive concern. We have to be good representatives of veganism and try not to associate it with terrible things like misanthropy or fringe ideas like communism or whatever.

Yes, personal image can be a big factor in whether or not someone becomes vegan, especially if someone can't see themselves as a "vegan person". But I think that the main difficulty, socially speaking, is finding vegan options at restaruants, family get-togethers, business trips and such, where you have to force everyone to coordinate and agree on something special for your sake. If you have an allergy, you'd have to do the same, but if you're vegan people can be more resentful because it's like you're "choosing" to inconvenience everyone. And I think most people don't want to come off as the "kind of person" that is willing to do that, which does also tie into self-image, and would be beyond their indentity as a vegan per se. Like you said, it seems to be improving with time in that we are moving away from this stigma, but unfortunately I think it still is quite prevalent.

In these scenarios, though, it does infinitely help when there is another vegan around, so this is something that would likely be resolved by just having a critical mass of vegans.

Red wrote: ↑Sat Sep 07, 2024 1:03 pm People go Vegan and Vegetarian all the time. It isn't like it's something that only appeals to a small percentage of the population, since most people care about animals, the environment, and their health and do want to be consistent with their values. The reason why we don't see more Vegans and Vegetarians is because the overwhelming majority of people who do make that transition will sooner or later switch back to eating meat.

But I think it's entirely possible that people only discover some of the more negative aspects of veganism through experience. People may be a bit naive going in w.r.t. how easy it is to find vegan options at an average restaurant, for example.

Red wrote: ↑Sat Sep 07, 2024 1:03 pm I'm not sure if this mindset is useful. Even though I go against the norm by being vegan, most people understand that animals have SOME moral value, meaning in terms of mentality we're mostly on the same page. You need to do everything you can to minimize the barrier between you and others if you want to get more people to reduce their consumption of animal products. We are all citizens of this world trying our best in the here and now.

Yeah I get that, and I do see how it can seem utterly aloof and god-complexy to say "I am a visitor from a future time". I just mean, it's part of my social orientation in that, while I do recognize I am a product of the present (as Kamala Harris would remind me), I am quite willing to try to imagine things from a future perspective, as a sort of "heuristic" that I use when the most ethical choice of action is not so clear to me, and in those moments it helps me to LARP as if I am some kind of time traveller. It's also probably partly a defence mechanism I use to avoid getting myself "swept up" in various modern-day social problems (which has led me to do some pretty silly things in the past).

Red wrote: ↑Sat Sep 07, 2024 1:03 pm I would be interested in discussing that with you.

Yep, I'm definitely very interested in discussing how veganism might relate to sexual/romantic orientation, in my case at least (though I wouldn't want to derail the discussion too much here).

aroneous wrote: ↑Sat Sep 07, 2024 3:26 pm Oh right, yep indeed this aspect did slip my mind when writing this post. Though it does make me wonder why exactly vegans would have a much greater drive to overcome laziness/forces of habit. Do we just have more empathy than them? Probably, it's quite a bit more complex than that.

Maybe, or maybe we have just enough willpower to do it and stick with it. I'm not even sure about that though, people who go and stay vegan were probably never that invested in eating meat much anyway. When I first went Vegan I thought I would often be tempted and maybe give in, but I can't recall a single instance I've been tempted to eat meat, nor any moment where I've had any interest in going back.

I also think another reason why more people don't make any real effort to go Vegan even if they acknowledge the reality of the suffering felt by animals is because they tend to lie to themselves, eg thinking that the stuff they see in slaughterhouse footage is just the bad ones and they buy "humanely" raised meat (which they don't, but it eases the mental struggle when they tell themselves that).

aroneous wrote: ↑Sat Sep 07, 2024 3:26 pmBut I think that the main difficulty, socially speaking, is finding vegan options at restaruants, family get-togethers, business trips and such, where you have to force everyone to coordinate and agree on something special for your sake.

Most diners at least have a Beyond or Impossible burger on their menu these days, and with apps like HappyCow it's becoming increasingly easy to find places that have menu items that will make everyone happy. It isn't the 80s anymore where the only Vegan item most restaurants have are french fries and salads. I would actually advise against eating at places that STILL don't have any decent Vegan options aside from some sides, since you're basically keeping laggards' doors open.

It's something like this:

100% Vegan Place > Vegetarian Place (that still has Vegan options of course) > Modern place that serves meat but offers a large Vegan menu and maybe even advertises it >>>> Diner with just a Beyond burger >>>>>> (there's a pretty big gap) >>> Place without any real vegan options whatsoever.

Wherein from left to right it goes from not only the best places to eat for Vegans, but how beneficial it would be to the movement to patronize each respective business.

I can say from experience that I've been dragged to at least once place that didn't have A SINGLE vegan option, not even fries. All I had was a water, it wasn't pleasant.

We have an article on this sort of thing: wiki/index.php/Dining_Out

aroneous wrote: ↑Sat Sep 07, 2024 3:26 pm If you have an allergy, you'd have to do the same, but if you're vegan people can be more resentful because it's like you're "choosing" to inconvenience everyone. And I think most people don't want to come off as the "kind of person" that is willing to do that, which does also tie into self-image, and would be beyond their indentity as a vegan per se. Like you said, it seems to be improving with time in that we are moving away from this stigma, but unfortunately I think it still is quite prevalent.

I think we should try moving towards a mentality of, if someone is resenting you because you slightly inconvenienced them by making them go to a different restaurant due to your ethical decisions that they don't care about educating themselves on, they're the ones who are assholes. Vegans concerned about this need to know they are not doing anything wrong, and should not let some crybabies stand in the way of them doing the right thing. But if there's a Vegan in a friend group there's a pretty good chance that they'll be understanding anyway and won't cry about it.

Frankly the reason why people don't like going out with me isn't because of the Veganism, but because I don't like ethnic food which limits things.

At the same time of course, Vegans should not be hostile about it to others and make a big stink about it, and approach it as diplomatically as possible.

aroneous wrote: ↑Sat Sep 07, 2024 3:26 pmIn these scenarios, though, it does infinitely help when there is another vegan around, so this is something that would likely be resolved by just having a critical mass of vegans.

Or even just convincing your friends to eat less meat. They might even try the Vegan option themselves, or better yet deliberately get the Vegan option when you're out with them to be respectful. My closest friend isn't Vegan himself, but he always gets the vegan option when we eat together. In fact, going out to eat might be the perfect opportunity for food evangelism.

aroneous wrote: ↑Sat Sep 07, 2024 3:26 pm But I think it's entirely possible that people only discover some of the more negative aspects of veganism through experience. People may be a bit naive going in w.r.t. how easy it is to find vegan options at an average restaurant, for example.

That might be the case where they overestimate how easy it might be for them, though often times the negative aspects of Veganism are there from the start: Namely, they won't have a very strong basis in their ethics for being Vegan (often an emotional, intuitive and tenuous system of ethics that is probably mostly Utilitarian with some deontology mixed in) or they won't be very strong with their empirical reasoning in terms of health and the environment.

aroneous wrote: ↑Sat Sep 07, 2024 3:26 pmYeah I get that, and I do see how it can seem utterly aloof and god-complexy to say "I am a visitor from a future time". I just mean, it's part of my social orientation in that, while I do recognize I am a product of the present (as Kamala Harris would remind me), I am quite willing to try to imagine things from a future perspective, as a sort of "heuristic" that I use when the most ethical choice of action is not so clear to me, and in those moments it helps me to LARP as if I am some kind of time traveller. It's also probably partly a defence mechanism I use to avoid getting myself "swept up" in various modern-day social problems (which has led me to do some pretty silly things in the past).

I can see the appeal in trying to be a forward thinking type of person, when you look back at the things that used to be considered socially acceptable which are now considered cruel and evil. Makes me wonder, aside from animal agriculture and prisons, what future people are going to think we do now is disgusting and vile. My point mainly though is just don't seperate yourself too much from society, since we still all need each other to live comfortable lives.

aroneous wrote: ↑Sat Sep 07, 2024 3:26 pm Yep, I'm definitely very interested in discussing how veganism might relate to sexual/romantic orientation, in my case at least (though I wouldn't want to derail the discussion too much here).

Please start a thread on it, it can be a very important topic.

Red wrote: ↑Sun Sep 08, 2024 2:27 pm Most diners at least have a Beyond or Impossible burger on their menu these days, and with apps like HappyCow it's becoming increasingly easy to find places that have menu items that will make everyone happy. It isn't the 80s anymore where the only Vegan item most restaurants have are french fries and salads. I would actually advise against eating at places that STILL don't have any decent Vegan options aside from some sides, since you're basically keeping laggards' doors open.

That does really depend on the country/region though. Where I am right now (France), I still find myself in the "no vegan options whatsoever" category of restaurants quite frequently (maybe, 40% of the time). I don't really eat out on my own though, if I did I would be sure to avoid those kind of restaurants altogether.

Red wrote: ↑Sun Sep 08, 2024 2:27 pm I can say from experience that I've been dragged to at least once place that didn't have A SINGLE vegan option, not even fries. All I had was a water, it wasn't pleasant.

Oof, that is rough. I think if I cared more about cross-contamination with animal products, I would find myself in that situation much more often. Well let me be clear, I do care and I find incredibly disappointing when you specifically ask for a vegan option and you see them use the same utensils they use to handle meat to prepare your food, it's something I have to try really hard to ignore in order to not get too grossed out and lose my appetite. It's sadly the case that if you're a vegan who wants to avoid making a big fuss all the time, you just have to accept having your mouth "assaulted" by animal flesh & secretions on a regular basis.

Red wrote: ↑Sun Sep 08, 2024 2:27 pm I think we should try moving towards a mentality of, if someone is resenting you because you slightly inconvenienced them by making them go to a different restaurant due to your ethical decisions that they don't care about educating themselves on, they're the ones who are assholes. Vegans concerned about this need to know they are not doing anything wrong, and should not let some crybabies stand in the way of them doing the right thing. But if there's a Vegan in a friend group there's a pretty good chance that they'll be understanding anyway and won't cry about it.

Right, but the thing is that assholes will always exist, and some people are really quite averse to any kind of confrontation/judgement. So for them, even acknowledging that these people are assholes won't help much. And regardless of how nice your colleagues or friends are, there's always a bit of deviance associated with veganism. I think a lot of people like to be seen as "normal", "chill", and "easy-going", and veganism kind of goes against that a bit. And in some cultures that put more emphasis on social conformity (e.g. Japan), this kind of deviance may even be generally frowned upon by society at large.

Red wrote: ↑Sun Sep 08, 2024 2:27 pm I can see the appeal in trying to be a forward thinking type of person, when you look back at the things that used to be considered socially acceptable which are now considered cruel and evil. Makes me wonder, aside from animal agriculture and prisons, what future people are going to think we do now is disgusting and vile.

I imagine that a lot of this will have to do with money, and how (some) people pursue money as a means to control others and essentially effect modern-day slavery under the guise of a free market economy. We'll probably also see things a lot more in terms of opportunity costs, and will be appalled at how much time and energy people spend selfishly pursuing short-term gains rather than working on things that could help improve the well-being of current and future humans/non-human animals.

Red wrote: ↑Sun Sep 08, 2024 2:27 pm My point mainly though is just don't seperate yourself too much from society, since we still all need each other to live comfortable lives.

Yeah, it's not a means to distinguish or isolate myself from others, it's just a thought experiment I often like to engage in which sometimes leads to interesting conclusions and perspectives on the world I inhabit.

I've thought of a few more reasons that may dissuade people from veganism, which they might not say out loud:

• They might see veganism as "cynicism in disguise". That is, it is just a convenient outlet through which misanthropes and otherwise cynically-inclined individuals can express their anger and disdain for their fellow humans. Having this perception of veganism yourself could be enough to turn you away from veganism since most people don't want to come off as cynical. Of course, this isn't at all accurate and probably a over-generalization from an experience with an unpleasant vegan or an impression they have gotten from some of the more aggressive forms of activism, but unfortunately I think it is actually quite common for people to think of vegans in this way.

• In order to quell cognitive dissonance, it helps to establish an impression of oneself as an "overall good person". Because we are often more ready to apply the good person label to other people rather than ourselves, we tend to look to people we consider good people and try to see ourselves as being similar enough to them in some way. Since the vast majority of people we know are not vegan, it's quite easy to find someone we respect or appreciate that is not vegan, so veganism is not really a requirement for us to be able to consider ourselves a good person. I'm not saying that it should be, but I think that people tend to not fully grasp the subtlety of the concept that "good people can do bad things". Vegans may generally be a bit more exacting of themselves in this regard, and may have more interest in minimizing the bad things that they do (in spite of being a good person).

• This probably deserves its own thread, but I think that people tend to associate veganism with belief. In the worst instance someone may call veganism a "cult", but even people who acknowledge that veganism is an ethical stance may still somewhat concieve of it as something you have to "believe in", and this may make it easier to dismiss in the same way an atheist may dismiss Catholicism, for example.

aroneous wrote: ↑Sat Sep 14, 2024 5:12 pm That does really depend on the country/region though. Where I am right now (France), I still find myself in the "no vegan options whatsoever" category of restaurants quite frequently (maybe, 40% of the time). I don't really eat out on my own though, if I did I would be sure to avoid those kind of restaurants altogether.

That can be kind of rough. If you're going out with friends a lot and they don't wanna inconvienence themselves a tiny bit by going to a place with a handful of vegan options, you can either:
1. Get new friends
2. Tough it out and eat potatoes or whatever since complaining about it might put people off, as I'm sure you know.

You can probably write the restaurants a letter telling them you would like to see at least a few Vegan options. Kinda surprising, figured France would be a little more culturally progressive, but then again in my experience with talking with Vegans in Europe the US has a much stronger Vegan market.

aroneous wrote: ↑Sat Sep 14, 2024 5:12 pm Oof, that is rough. I think if I cared more about cross-contamination with animal products, I would find myself in that situation much more often. Well let me be clear, I do care and I find incredibly disappointing when you specifically ask for a vegan option and you see them use the same utensils they use to handle meat to prepare your food, it's something I have to try really hard to ignore in order to not get too grossed out and lose my appetite.

That's why I don't order food at restaurants that require utensils.

But cross-contamination is certainly a concern from a psychological standpoint (as someone who lives with meat eaters), but of course you have to not make such a big deal out of it.

aroneous wrote: ↑Sat Sep 14, 2024 5:12 pmIt's sadly the case that if you're a vegan who wants to avoid making a big fuss all the time, you just have to accept having your mouth "assaulted" by animal flesh & secretions on a regular basis.

Generally if a non-vegan place makes a point of catering to Vegans, there's a pretty good chance they already use separate equipment. Hell, even for places with just a Beyond Burger, I've seen a few restaurants that cook it in a secluded corner of the grill and use its own spatula. Probably not the norm for most diners, but people are aware that it's something that Vegans would be concerned about.
https://www.peta.org/living/food/making ... ucts-food/

You can try blocking it out of your mind, but it never really works since you know what it really is and you can't just forget that.

aroneous wrote: ↑Sat Sep 14, 2024 5:12 pm Right, but the thing is that assholes will always exist, and some people are really quite averse to any kind of confrontation/judgement. So for them, even acknowledging that these people are assholes won't help much. And regardless of how nice your colleagues or friends are, there's always a bit of deviance associated with veganism. I think a lot of people like to be seen as "normal", "chill", and "easy-going", and veganism kind of goes against that a bit. And in some cultures that put more emphasis on social conformity (e.g. Japan), this kind of deviance may even be generally frowned upon by society at large.

I think you're overestimating the general distaste for Vegans these days, at least in the West.

aroneous wrote: ↑Sat Sep 14, 2024 5:12 pm I imagine that a lot of this will have to do with money, and how (some) people pursue money as a means to control others and essentially effect modern-day slavery under the guise of a free market economy. We'll probably also see things a lot more in terms of opportunity costs, and will be appalled at how much time and energy people spend selfishly pursuing short-term gains rather than working on things that could help improve the well-being of current and future humans/non-human animals.

This sounds like it oughta be its own thread.

aroneous wrote: ↑Sat Sep 14, 2024 5:12 pm They might see veganism as "cynicism in disguise". That is, it is just a convenient outlet through which misanthropes and otherwise cynically-inclined individuals can express their anger and disdain for their fellow humans. Having this perception of veganism yourself could be enough to turn you away from veganism since most people don't want to come off as cynical. Of course, this isn't at all accurate and probably a over-generalization from an experience with an unpleasant vegan or an impression they have gotten from some of the more aggressive forms of activism, but unfortunately I think it is actually quite common for people to think of vegans in this way.

I can see it in a way people view punks, young and irrational people expressing themselves via a subculture like that, and generally aren't ones you'd wanna associate with (maybe the straight edge crowd, but even that can be dicey).

Though I think Veganism is slowing growing out of that in the mainstream. I think at this point if a young progressive in a developed country isn't at least sympathetic to veganism and/or doesn't see any real problem with the consumption of animal products (despite the environmental and ethical issues being well established) that person has his or her head up his or her ass.

aroneous wrote: ↑Sat Sep 14, 2024 5:12 pm In order to quell cognitive dissonance, it helps to establish an impression of oneself as an "overall good person". Because we are often more ready to apply the good person label to other people rather than ourselves, we tend to look to people we consider good people and try to see ourselves as being similar enough to them in some way. Since the vast majority of people we know are not vegan, it's quite easy to find someone we respect or appreciate that is not vegan, so veganism is not really a requirement for us to be able to consider ourselves a good person. I'm not saying that it should be, but I think that people tend to not fully grasp the subtlety of the concept that "good people can do bad things". Vegans may generally be a bit more exacting of themselves in this regard, and may have more interest in minimizing the bad things that they do (in spite of being a good person).

That's an interesting take. No one wants to think they're doing evil, so they rationalize it via comparison. That's actually a big reason why when Vegans enter relationships with meat eaters, the vegan will often give up Veganism, since they don't want to acknowledge that their partner is doing something bad.

aroneous wrote: ↑Sat Sep 14, 2024 5:12 pm This probably deserves its own thread, but I think that people tend to associate veganism with belief. In the worst instance someone may call veganism a "cult", but even people who acknowledge that veganism is an ethical stance may still somewhat concieve of it as something you have to "believe in", and this may make it easier to dismiss in the same way an atheist may dismiss Catholicism, for example.

People know that Veganism holds ethical and environmental weight, but it can still be viewed as a sort of ideology. But most people, given that they understand that animals have moral value, already agree with the underlying Vegan worldview.

Red wrote: ↑Sat Sep 14, 2024 10:27 pm You can probably write the restaurants a letter telling them you would like to see at least a few Vegan options. Kinda surprising, figured France would be a little more culturally progressive, but then again in my experience with talking with Vegans in Europe the US has a much stronger Vegan market.

France in general is a bit behind the rest of the western countries when it comes to veganism. You'll find plenty of vegans in major urban centers, but as soon as you travel outside of them veganism is practically unheard of. Of course, a large part of this has to do with their pride in their culinary tradition (which I cannot partake in at all, aside from ratatouille). But I suspect another part of it might be the historical rivalry with England (the UK is very vegan friendly) which might be responsible for some cultural polarization there. It's funny, I've heard people say that the UK "doesn't have any real food" relative to France, but as a vegan I would say completely the opposite.

Red wrote: ↑Sat Sep 14, 2024 10:27 pm People know that Veganism holds ethical and environmental weight, but it can still be viewed as a sort of ideology. But most people, given that they understand that animals have moral value, already agree with the underlying Vegan worldview.

Yes, people tend to agree with the ethical aspects of veganism, but they still might think that there's a whole lot more to it besides that. Like how most people agree with the Ten Commandment's "thou shalt not kill" but understand that doesn't automatically make them religious, I think people might think that there is an extra layer of belief to veganism beyond the purely ethical aspects (e.g. that vegans ascribe some special (perhaps spiritual) status to animals that an ordinary person would not).

I also think that people tend to take quite some pride in the fact that they are somewhat stable in their lifestyle choices. People don't like to show that they've been swayed by the slightest influence (e.g. the appearance of a vegan in their lives), and are reluctant to present themselves as someone who can get easily swept up in social justice movements. This might partly explain why, in the presence of a vegan, a nonvegan who perhaps would otherwise be inclined toward a vegetarian option would choose a meat option. This also precludes the possibility of an uncomfortable conversation for them if the vegan notices that they took a vegetarian meal and inquires if they're trying to become vegan. I suppose that's an example of when being vegan might -- in that singular instance -- have the opposite effect that we intend, but it is important for us not to take it personally when it happens. After all, if this really is the case, it at least means that they are already seriously thinking about veganism, so their overall animal product consumption might decrease in the future.

Here's another big one I forgot to mention:

By being vegan, you kind of "impose" cognitive dissonance on the people around you. And cognitive dissonance is quite an unpleasant feeling. So counterintuitively, the more a nonvegan experiences cognitive dissonance, the less likely they might be to become vegan, as they consider themselves "too nice" to force people to constantly feel similarly ill-at-ease about the impact of their decisions. I do believe that social utility exists, in that how we treat one another socially has an impact on the well-being of ourselves and others, but I don't think it extends as far as allowing us to lie to ourselves or ignore the consequences of our actions just to feel a bit better about acting unethically. In any case, this social amicability only extends to their fellow non-vegans, since vegans might see what is going on as they are giving preference to the majority at the animals' (and perhaps a bit of our own) expense.

Overall, I've realized that a lot of these "secret reasons" for not going vegan that I have come up with have a lot to do with self-image and the way we wish to be seen by others. So it's really no surprise that we almost never hear them mentioned. Most people do not want to be rude, and saying to a vegan "I don't want other people to think of me in the way that I think of you" is certainly a bit offensive.