Philosophical Vegan Forum

Hello all and thanks for taking the time to read my introduction.

Perhaps my experience is a common one among the members here. I have long been aware of the horrors of the meat and dairy industry but [incorrectly] believed that I needed animal products for nutritional reasons, partially due to prior experiences with a poorly planned vegetarian diet, and partially due to tradition and "conventional wisdom", i.e. industry propaganda. Most recently I was vegetarian for about a year, primarily as a way to reduce my personal consumption of animal products without alienating/overwhelming my wife, who is generally ethically on board but had never really critically considered her consumption of animals. At that time I didn't consider veganism; it sounded extreme and hard to achieve. A couple months ago I decided to become vegan. I regret that it took as long as it did, but better late than never. My wife is getting there; with her I walk a fine line between educating and overwhelming. Now my challenges are getting my own nutritional house in order, which is getting there (ex (no need to answer): do I really need to eat beans at every meal? Do I need a multivitamin just to "top myself off"? Wait, how much B12? Does sitting in the sun count as Vitamin D? What is selenium and do I really need to start eating Brazil nuts? Is 1,000 mg of calcium really necessary? etc.), and bringing my wife and kids (aged 4 and 2) along and ensuring that they're getting the nutrition they need. With the kids I've been working on a general approach of compassion and nonviolence toward all earthlings.

I came across this website by chance. I watched Gary Yourofsky's 2010 speech after a Redditor's recommendation. I found his general message to be a compelling message for veganism, although some of his particular points felt dated and/or wrong. After watching the speech I found this site's wiki entry of him. I'm happy to have found the site and am looking forward to drilling into the arguments for veganism that work, the ones that don't, and effective responses to common arguments against veganism.

Welcome ejwa!
We can answer your nutritional questions as they come. We have an article on nutrients of concern on our wiki:
wiki/index.php/Nutrients_of_Concern

And yeah, you're right that Yourofsky's speech, while overall compelling, has a lot of problems (also thanks for reading it, I did almost all of the writing). What arguments in particular do you think were weak on his part?

Well, as I indicated, I had never heard of him before and therefore don't have any of the context of his prior or subsequent positions or statements. So, for example, while he had one answer that seemed misanthropic (we think we're better than them? Who's killing whom?), it came off to me as more of a throwaway than an actual considered position.

Personally, I think about veganism as follows: (1) a well planned plant based diet is at least as healthy as a diet including animal products, (2) animal agriculture causes untold suffering to trillions of sentient beings, and therefore (3) there is no principled basis for consuming animal products. And the kicker: animal ag is destroying the planet, so even if you can make it "less terrible," scaling up those less terrible alternatives make it even worse for the environment.

With that in mind, who cares if vegans don't have to take supplements? It's fine if we do. Who cares if we used to be herbivores or if we used to eat only meat? It's 2024, we're not Neanderthals. Who cares if eggs are actually period eggs or whatever? That doesn't have anything to do with the healthfulness of a vegan diet or the suffering of animals, and I don't think it's likely to change people's impression of eggs. And then there are factually incorrect arguments like "meat causes osteoporosis," which undermine the veracity of the movement.

I appreciated your write-up of Yourofsky. I do have a small suggestion. Again, I don't have any context with him, and I'm sure you're much more fed up with him than I am. But having just come from watching his lecture, and having sent it to a couple family members as a piece of advocacy that might not be perfect but that was forceful in its indictment of the status quo, I thought the writeup on the website was a touch too snarky. I was put off, for example, when you wrote, "It's almost like he has the mind of a first-grader" and "he just chooses to be stupid." You might be right about those things, and maybe that's the tone you're going for, I can only tell you how I felt reading it.

ejwa2022 wrote: ↑Mon Oct 28, 2024 6:02 pm Well, as I indicated, I had never heard of him before and therefore don't have any of the context of his prior or subsequent positions or statements. So, for example, while he had one answer that seemed misanthropic (we think we're better than them? Who's killing whom?), it came off to me as more of a throwaway than an actual considered position.

When he was active, especially during his post-Georgia Tech speech era (after 2010) he espoused highly misanthropic views in subsequent speeches, youtube videos, interviews, and blog posts. I can show examples if you want, there's plenty to go around. I have no idea what caused the shift, I'm sure ever since he went Vegan he was misanthropic but it just became more and more overt as he became a popular figure in the movement.

ejwa2022 wrote: ↑Mon Oct 28, 2024 6:02 pmPersonally, I think about veganism as follows: (1) a well planned plant based diet is at least as healthy as a diet including animal products, (2) animal agriculture causes untold suffering to trillions of sentient beings, and therefore (3) there is no principled basis for consuming animal products. And the kicker: animal ag is destroying the planet, so even if you can make it "less terrible," scaling up those less terrible alternatives make it even worse for the environment.

Yep, that more or less sums it up. Devil's in the details when we discuss the nuances of the ethics (why is something wrong?) and the scientific evidence for the more empirical arguments.

ejwa2022 wrote: ↑Mon Oct 28, 2024 6:02 pmWith that in mind, who cares if vegans don't have to take supplements? It's fine if we do. Who cares if we used to be herbivores or if we used to eat only meat? It's 2024, we're not Neanderthals. Who cares if eggs are actually period eggs or whatever? That doesn't have anything to do with the healthfulness of a vegan diet or the suffering of animals, and I don't think it's likely to change people's impression of eggs. And then there are factually incorrect arguments like "meat causes osteoporosis," which undermine the veracity of the movement.

We do have a lot of pseudoscience and crazies plaguing the movement, though I *like* to think the community of rational vegans is slowly growing as more people pick up on evidence and reason within effective altruist sympathizing circles.

ejwa2022 wrote: ↑Mon Oct 28, 2024 6:02 pmI appreciated your write-up of Yourofsky. I do have a small suggestion. Again, I don't have any context with him, and I'm sure you're much more fed up with him than I am. But having just come from watching his lecture, and having sent it to a couple family members as a piece of advocacy that might not be perfect but that was forceful in its indictment of the status quo, I thought the writeup on the website was a touch too snarky. I was put off, for example, when you wrote, "It's almost like he has the mind of a first-grader" and "he just chooses to be stupid." You might be right about those things, and maybe that's the tone you're going for, I can only tell you how I felt reading it.

Haha, I get where you're coming from, I was 19 when I wrote it and did it because I myself was pissed off and frustrated at Yourofsky's stupidity, and it felt like a great way to get it off my chest. If I were to write it today it'd probably be pretty much the same but more mature (I'd still keep some snark). I might go back and rewrite some parts though.

Welcome, I'm glad you find the wiki helpful!

ejwa2022 wrote: ↑Mon Oct 28, 2024 1:00 pm Now my challenges are getting my own nutritional house in order, which is getting there (ex (no need to answer): do I really need to eat beans at every meal? Do I need a multivitamin just to "top myself off"? Wait, how much B12? Does sitting in the sun count as Vitamin D? What is selenium and do I really need to start eating Brazil nuts? Is 1,000 mg of calcium really necessary? etc.), and bringing my wife and kids (aged 4 and 2) along and ensuring that they're getting the nutrition they need. With the kids I've been working on a general approach of compassion and nonviolence toward all earthlings.

I can answer briefly for you:

You don't need to eat beans every meal, but they're a very healthy source of protein, fiber, and complex carbs; as a staple they're always a good choice. Just work up to higher consumption gradually to avoid gas.

A multi is probably wise, there are specific vegan multis like deva which are popular, and tend to have adequate amounts of B-12 which other multis may not.

The sun counts if you're light skinned and it's summer, but otherwise it's safer to get some from a multi or fortified food as well. The exact amount needed isn't that clear; there's optimal, and then there's deficiency. You're unlikely to reach the low levels of clinical deficiency if you get some sun or get some in a supplement. Optimal on the other hand is a much debated issue.

Selenium will probably be in a multi. Whether you need any kind of supplement depends on the soil in your region and the regions you import your staples from. Wheat is usually rich, but not always if grown in depleted soils. Other grains tend to be poorer.
This is also more of an issue of optimal, which is controversial.

Calcium: You probably don't have to get a gram a day, but it depends on you. Personal needs vary. Getting enough D may help mitigate suboptimal calcium levels. However, if you consume any fortified soymilk it's pretty easy to hit the target. Calcium antacids are another easy cheap way. You don't need to supplement much or at all, because your diet probably contains some. If you eat greens and beans, your diet probably contains much calcium already.

You may want to input what you're eating into a nutrition tracking program like cronometer.

Your wife is an adult, and should be able to eat well given some minimal guidance. Your kids may be tricky. Kids can be picky, and they have smaller mouths and stomachs that can make high fiber foods more challenging and make it harder to get adequate nutrition. A kid isn't necessarily going to be able or willing to eat a cup of beans and nuts and broccoli without having been eating that way.

For transitional purposes, It's easier for most people to raise kids vegetarian unless they're OG vegans with a lot of experience. You'll see better compliance that way. But it depends on your kids, maybe they go all out for nuts and beans and veggies and are really into ditching animal products. Make sure they're getting all the RDI for everything with a nutrition tracker, though. Kids have stricter needs and pickier eating. Work with their pediatricians to ensure they're getting what they need and on good growth tracks. Go slowly if you're set on going all vegan with them, and go the method of adding in vegan foods rather than taking thing away to start. Don't fear processed foods. What's bad for over-fed adults can be very useful for getting kids to eat enough, but definitely keep an eye on getting lots of protein and healthy fats. Over-reliance on processed carbs is an obesity risk.