Philosophical Vegan Forum

As a former meat eater i like the taste of meat. I like eggs and milk in my hot chocolate.
Thing is i decided not to eat meat anymore and slowly decrease my intage of eggs and milk.

Food "replacements" are a frequent topic among vegetarians and vegans, as is seen in topics in this forum like:

http://theveganatheist.com/forum/viewto ... f=20&t=138
http://theveganatheist.com/forum/viewto ... f=20&t=128
http://theveganatheist.com/forum/viewto ... f=20&t=137

It maybe not correct to call them replacements since some people consume them while they don't like the taste of the "original" product.

For myself they are, since i did not consume oatmilk and tofu before I became a vegetarian.
But I notice that many people, vegans, vegetarians and omnivores alike, scoff at the idea of food replacements. especially meatlike Tofu or other products which are spiced up to taste and look like meat.
One vegetarian acquaintance even thinks its morally wrong to form food like animals or make it taste like it.

If it makes the transition for some people easier, whats the harm/problem?

"They just pretend, they want to eat meat but just don't do it" is a thing I heard twice or thrice.
It's true for me at least. If there would be no moral problems with meat I still would eat it like its going out of fashion (mostly chicken curry and chinese duck).
Whats your view?

Corelich wrote:One vegetarian acquaintance even thinks its morally wrong to form food like animals or make it taste like it.

Oh come on... That's ridiculous. Nobody is being harmed. It's actually helping people transition and stay, like you said.

I once found a vegan online who thought it was wrong to make vegan cookies shaped like chicks, because "it glorifies eating animals". o_O

Corerlich wrote:"They just pretend, they want to eat meat but just don't do it" is a thing I heard twice or thrice.

What the hell do they think, that you gave up meat because you didn't like the taste?

I think it's comparable to saying that people who use cigarette alternatives want to keep smoking.

Well of course they don't want to keep smoking. They're going out of their way to get alternatives! They just like the feeling smoking gives them. Same situation with vegetarians/vegans who use mock-meats.

There's nothing wrong with mock meats, although vegetables are healthier, mock meats are much healthier than the 'real' thing, and of course less environmentally destructive, not harmful to animals, etc.

Some people think it's hypocritical, because they don't understand what veganism is about, or more generally don't understand how morality or logic work.
They think vegans are arbitrarily against eating meat for some reason, which just isn't the case. At least not for sane vegans.

There are deontological vegans who will oppose mock meats for really poor reasons.

It's similar to the issue of "simulated child pornography".
Child porn is wrong. But is simulated child porn wrong (it involves no children)?
What if simulated child porn satisfies would-be pedophiles' urges so they don't molest real children? There are many people who would still insist it's wrong, no matter what.

Thanks for the quick answers,
good to hear I'm not alone on this.

Personally I would be happier if the food I eat did not remind me of dead animal parts, animal eggs, or animal mammary glands, but if it helps some people convert into vegetarianism than I'm all for it.

They're great starter foods and as you progress you should learn how to make balanced whole food meals that are actually very easy to make.(lentils, rice, beans, quinoa ect)
Tell your friends that they're just trying to spice their meat up to taste more like your tofu! It goes both ways what the people really enjoy are the flavors that have been put into the 'base' of what they are eating, most vegetarians don't eat plain tofu and most omnivores don't eat plain meat.

PrincessPeach wrote:quinoa

Quinoa is healthy, sure, but it isn't sustainable. It causes animal deaths (chickens), because in order for Americans to eat Quinoa, the Quinoa is bought (taken) from the native people and replaced by chicken.

The issue is that demand exceeds supply. Not everybody who wants to eat it can.
A bowl of Quinoa might as well be a chicken wing, right now.

As Quinoa cultivation in Canada and other locations expands and new varieties are produced that grow well in these areas, that may change.
If you can't find Canadian or US grown Quinoa (which supports those new varieties and sustianable production), buying Quinoa from South America probably does more harm to animals than good.

Just saying.

Not all plant products are good (Quinoa, Palm oil), and not all animal products are necessarily evil (Rope grown oysters).
It's about the harm or good the production and economics of these supplies do to the world and animals, which is not always obvious.

brimstoneSalad wrote:

PrincessPeach wrote:quinoa

Quinoa is healthy, sure, but it isn't sustainable. It causes animal deaths (chickens), because in order for Americans to eat Quinoa, the Quinoa is bought (taken) from the native people and replaced by chicken.

The issue is that demand exceeds supply. Not everybody who wants to eat it can.
A bowl of Quinoa might as well be a chicken wing, right now.

As Quinoa cultivation in Canada and other locations expands and new varieties are produced that grow well in these areas, that may change.
If you can't find Canadian or US grown Quinoa (which supports those new varieties and sustianable production), buying Quinoa from South America probably does more harm to animals than good.

Just saying.

Not all plant products are good (Quinoa, Palm oil), and not all animal products are necessarily evil (Rope grown oysters).
It's about the harm or good the production and economics of these supplies do to the world and animals, which is not always obvious.

<3 THANK YOU!
I'm actually doing a mini dance I can never quinoa get to taste well..
My son never eats the quinoa anyways he tells me "no rice" ..
I usually get mine from the bulk section at whole foods..
What is the issue with palm oil, it hurt's gorllia's or something?

PrincessPeach wrote: I usually get mine from the bulk section at whole foods..

You could ask them where it's grown, but they probably won't know. Most is grown in South America, and that's the kind you want to avoid. 99% chance, probably, it's grown there.

PrincessPeach wrote:What is the issue with palm oil, it hurt's gorllia's or something?

There's a recent episode of VICE on this issue.
VICE season 3 episode 6 - The Post-Antibiotic World & Indonesia's Palm Bomb
If you can find it, please link it for others (I couldn't find a link).

They also write about the topic pretty frequently:
https://news.vice.com/article/indonesia ... r-palm-oil

I don't exaggerate when I say that it's one of the worst things in the world. It's less bad than animal agriculture, but not by much.

Here's an opinion that boycotting palm oil is useless:
http://munchies.vice.com/articles/boyco ... o-any-good

Something I don't agree with. I consider optional regulation useless (although they do have a point about replacement, to a degree -- at least in terms of tropical oils).
The issue is that demand exceeds supply, and as long as it does so, people will continue destroying the rainforests to increase supply.

Palm oil is fungible. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fungibility
If you use "sustainable" palm oil instead, it makes absolutely NO difference whatsoever. Demand is still X, supply is still Y. Only if everybody only used sustainable palm oil would it matter, and that would require legislation. And legislation is what we need. And military action.
Take our troops out of the Middle East and send them to protect the last of our world's rainforests.

This is also why you should never buy "real" diamonds, of any kind, regardless of their source. Industrially produced diamonds are fine, because they are not fungible with "natural" diamonds. Wikipedia mentions that diamonds are not perfectly fungible, and this is true, but diamond as a resource is fungible in bulk production. There's no apparent difference between a blood diamond and one out of a Canadian mine given the same cut, clarity, etc.

In the case of a boycott, you actually decrease demand. It's meaningful, even if you're not 100% successful at it. If you 90% reduce your use of palm oil, that in itself is meaningful.

In terms of laundry and washing, we may be up shit creek though. Tropical oils, due to the saturated fat content, like lauric and palmitic acids, simply make better soap. And I mean much better soap.
While you can eliminate them almost entirely from your food (and should, because palm oil is the least healthy natural oil on Earth, it beats butter, lard, etc.), it's very difficult at present to make soaps without these oils.
I can understand people using them for soap. And if the world ONLY used them for soap, then we'd probably actually have enough to go around and people would stop burning the rainforests to make more.

If you can afford it, though, use crappy soap (made from soybean oil or corn oil or something), and/or washing soda (sodium carbonate, different from backing soda which is sodium bicarbonate) and boil your laundry (boiling water increases the solubility, and thus efficacy, of inferior soaps).

brimstoneSalad wrote: In terms of laundry and washing, we may be up shit creek though. Tropical oils, due to the saturated fat content, like lauric and palmitic acids, simply make better soap. And I mean much better soap.
While you can eliminate them almost entirely from your food (and should, because palm oil is the least healthy natural oil on Earth, it beats butter, lard, etc.), it's very difficult at present to make soaps without these oils.
I can understand people using them for soap. And if the world ONLY used them for soap, then we'd probably actually have enough to go around and people would stop burning the rainforests to make more.

If you can afford it, though, use crappy soap (made from soybean oil or corn oil or something), and/or washing soda (sodium carbonate, different from backing soda which is sodium bicarbonate) and boil your laundry (boiling water increases the solubility, and thus efficacy, of inferior soaps).

Thank you for all the information.
I use dr. bronners castile peppermint soap and baking soda for my laundry and to wash myself and teeth.. Hippy soap!
I love a warm wet rag of dr bronners castile peppermint soap massaged into the face and neck for 5 minutes, amazing!
There is nothing wrong with Dr bronners now is there?!